Well, to be fair, the death threats were probably not a board decision. They appear to originate from a single, deranged employee named Melanie Kroll who is upset that PZ Myers, a professor of biology, was disrespectful to a cracker.
Actually, it isn’t really a cracker.
For those not up to speed on the developments of late with the Eucharist cracker fiasco being hotly discussed on the blogosphere, let me point you first to Gred Laden’s blog, where he has a list of relevant links. But here’s the gist:
A young man in Florida attends Communion at a local Catholic church and, when given the Eucharist (a little piece of tasteless cracker which is alleged by the superstitious to become the body of Christ after ingested), this young man absconds with the cracker tucked safely in a ziplock bag. He’s confronted and agrees to return it. It would seem that his intent was *not* to offend or desecrate. Nutjobs, whackos, and all-around assholes that consider themselves to be “true Catholics” had a different persepctive, however. They accused the young man of “kidnapping the host” and committing a “hate crime.” This, of course, is an insult to the victims and families of any real kidnappings and hate crimes.
PZ’s response was It’s Just a Fracking Cracker, which was one of the longest discussion threads I’ve ever seen on a blog. So long, in fact, he had to close it and begin a new one because of bandwidth issues. Among the comments in each of his posts were the occasional nutter that believes in the completely batshit idea that eating a cracker after a priest says a few magical words equates to eating the body of Jesus Christ. These nutters ranged from “you’ve blasphemed my religion and I’m praying for you,” to actual threats of violence.
And PZ has a policy that if he gets such threats that he will post the full emails, including headers showing IP addresses. And he did.
From: mkroll@1800FLOWERS.com
Subject: your short life
Date: July 13, 2008 8:07:31 AM CDT[…]
Paul,
what I would like to know is how did you even
get a job at a collage.when you are obviously a moron.
How would you feel if nice folks starting ranting against
Fags, and atheist like yourself.well sir, you don’t get to blaspheme and walk away from this.
You have two choices my fucked up friend, first you can quit your job for the good of the
children. Or you can get your brains beat in.I give you till the first of the month, get that resignation in cunt
I kid you not. It turns out, one of Pharyngula’s commenters sent an email to the address listed and it comes back as belonging to Melanie Kroll who is “out of the office” over the weekend. Moreover, the email ends with the proprietary disclosure that starts, “This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or proprietary information, and may be used only by..." that is so common at the end of corporate emails and often added as default signatures without the sender's knowledge since it's configured by the corporate IT nerds. Not to mention that another of Pharyngula's commenters took the opportunity to do the Whois and domain searches on the IP address breadcrumbs in the original header (click the link above) and found it originates with 1800FLowers.com.
So, while death threats probably aren’t an actual corporate policy for 1800Flowers.com, it would certainly see that they are willing to employ individuals for whom it is. If that employee isn’t terminated, would this mean that 1800Flowers.com offers tacit approval of death threats to university professors? What of other potential customers of 1800Flowers.com? Would they also be fair game for death threats as a response to holding opinions that run counter to 1800Flowers.com employees?
I think I’ll be buying my floral arrangements from elsewhere.
EDIT (7/14/08): As the first three commenters below pointed out, we really cannot blame Melanie Kroll with any useful probability. The only thing that can truly be said at this time is that the email orginated at 1800Flowers.com. At the very least, Ms. Kroll is guilty of not securing here workspace, but she may very well be a victim of having her email account used by another employee.
Its still very likely an employee, so the title of this post is still accurate. And I still doubt I’ll use 1800Flowers.com.
Filed under: Culture Wars | Tagged: 1800flowers.com, blasphemy, desecration, eucharist, whackos |
Breaking Spells 
I was the one who sent the email and got the auto-response. I should point out that a number of us have come to the conclusion that Ms. Kroll probably didn’t send the email, but rather that somebody else used her account. Several lines of evidence point in that direction:
1) The “voice” in the threatening email sounds masculine. Women don’t usually make threats of physical violence, such as threatening to “beat in” somebody’s brains. They also tend not call people “cunt.”
2) The auto-reply states Ms. Kroll has been on vacation for the last 10 days. If that’s true, it presents a perfect opportunity for someone else, perhaps a coworker, to use her account. Perhaps he thought he was being clever by using her computer and didn’t realize that the information would be posted publicly and that so many people would do any investigation into the matter.
3) You’d have to be awfully dumb to attach your own name to something like that.
As such, I wouldn’t blame Ms. Kroll publicly at this point.
Generally, I don’t approve of disclosing private information. It’s different in this case. If someone makes a threat of violence, it should be posted along with the name and email address of the culprit.
I don’t think it’s wise to blame this on Ms. Kroll at the moment. Nobody has confirmed that she did, in fact, send the email. It may very well have been someone else using her account.
I also have work email which I can access from home, the library, etc. My compter is password protected, as is my email program.
I guess the question is – Is Ms Kroll’s computer and email program password protected?
Even if Ms. Kroll did have her machine password protected, that’s quite easy to get around. A 1800Flowers IT guy could probably easily find her password by checking her login file. I used to do tech support for an ISP and we would have to ck. userid/passwords occasionally for customers that hadn’t actually entered it since they first established their accts. They’d switch machines, or have to reformat and have no idea what their original password was. After some verification, we’d issue the password to them.
And you’d be amazed how many passwords get swiped by family members/coworkers by people just looking over an account holder’s shoulder. Change those passwords at set intervals, say maybe 1x/mo. so you can avoid that happening to you.
that’s almost sad.
outlook has auto spell-check, ya know. 🙂
(and amen on no 1800flowers)
If the senders found out, 1800flowers has endless cause to fire them, oops!
And for the record, I know plenty of women who would call someone a cunt, but usually aimed at another woman.
Well, it appears that Melanie has lost her email account, I’ve just tried talking to their mail server:
Trying 205.153.87.20…
Connected to mail1.800-flowers.net.
Escape character is ‘^]’.
220 SMTP Proxy Server Ready
helo xxxxxxxxxx.org
250 +OK SMTP server Ready
mail from: xxxxxxx@xxxxxxxx.org
250 +OK Sender OK
rcpt to: mkroll@1800flowers.com
250 +OK Recipient OK
QUIT
and this is what I get now:
Trying 205.153.87.20…
Connected to mail1.800-flowers.net.
Escape character is ‘^]’.
220 SMTP Proxy Server Ready
helo xxxxxxxxx.org
250 +OK SMTP server Ready
mail from: xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.org
250 +OK Sender OK
rcpt to: mkroll@1800FLOWERS.com
550 Mailbox unavailable or access denied –
quit
Now, whether that means that she has been canned or they’ve just shut her mailbox down due to the high traffic will remain to be seen
Melanie Kroll did not send an email to anyone named Paul. Melanie Kroll did not threaten anyone in an email with death, or as was the case in the email in question, a physical beating.
this email did not come from 1-800-flowers, or anyone connected in anyway shape or form to that company, which happens to provide good paying jobs, for lot’s of folks who might otherwise not have them. they also happen to provide a good product at a fair price.
The fact is, that this email to the so called professor, was sent by an angry male catholic, who was very upset after reading that some crazed person in a position of responsibility, charged with teaching children biology, had been encouraging people to steal and desecrate the body of CHRIST, which for Catholics is represented by the Eucharist.
I know this to be true, since I wrote the original email to this so called teacher.
Was the tone of the letter terse, and did I say I would beat his brains in, yes I did.
I wrote this in the same way one does when saying “I’ll beat your ass”, “or kick I’ll kick your butt”
or other such niceties used by members of the unpolished masses, such as myself.
. I live a thousand miles away from this guy. My anger at what he (Myers) was doing, and the fact that there seems to be a double standard used by these so called intellectuals such as Paul Myers to attack the religion of millions of Americans, and to encourage others to do so made me see red. Pardon the pun.
Upon reflection, and reading many of the comments made, I feel that no matter how mad I was, it did not make it right for me to use the language or tone I used. In fact, I think there would have been many more constructive things I could have done, the angry email was just the simplest way.
And I’m sorry.
There are many folks that read, and biog. at this site who are not religious, perhaps you feel it’s silly, outdated, or superstition, fine. This is your right, but for people in positions of responsibility and with the power to encourage captive undeveloped minds to attack their neighbors beliefs is just insane, divisive, and maybe even criminal.
I wonder if that university where mr. myers is employed excepts any money from the state? And I wonder if the good people of this state know that they are paying good, hard earned tax dollars on such a disturbing creature as mr. myers.? I know for a fact that the University is aware of mr. myers antics, and have disavowed his statements.
I am going to write to mr. Myers and offer him my apologies for using such childish language, and the threatening way in which I presented myself to him. It is my hope that he will forgive me, or hold me accountable. However, I think it is his duty to repair the damage that he and his associates have
achieved through their concerted and organized campaign to punish both Melanie Kroll, and 1-800-flowers, who were completely blameless in this matter.
However, this whole incident has caused someone who had nothing to do with the email to mr.myers,.a wonderful, sweet person who would never threaten anyone terrible troubles. Great harm has been done to this wonderful lady, without proof or a question asked, you just accuse, and assume. Wow and I thought you liberal folks were supposed to be the open minded ones.
It is my hope that since the mystery is now removed, and now that the Identity of the horrible person who dared write such crude things to the mr. myers is known, that the same people who put so much effort into harming Melanie Kroll, will use as much effort to right the wrong that has been done to her.
If there is responsibility, and any seek revenge or if there is a need for consequence, it should fall on me, and me alone.
The email account used to send the email was used by mistake, I sent the email from what I thought was my private account, not the 1-800 email account that was used. I had simply clicked on the link to the professors email in the article.
. It’s somewhat amazing to me, that a guy responding (albeit brutishly) )to
a news article about a crazed professor who was encouraging his students and others to
desecrate the American catholic church, could turn into this orgy of innuendo, and an attack on an innocent, hard working mother of three, and a company that hires many underprivileged people, and single mothers as a matter of policy.
I want to thank some of the level headed people that have posted here. Some who seem so super smart to me, it’s almost intimating! My sending mr. myers that wrongheaded stupid email was never the fault of Melanie Kroll, or 1800-flowers, or the pope, or Bill DONAHUE, not even the president. It was just my gut reaction to statements made by mr. myers and his disciples.
In closing I still maintain that if mr. myers. Or anyone, who is encouraging people to desecrate the Eucharist, or if he is doing so himself, I would like to beat his brains in, would I? I don’t know.
I’ve never done so before. Though, at that one moment when I was reading his statements..?
I suppose If I caught him doing it, I would try to stop him.
I wonder if all of you perfectly politically correct folks here, the ones who prefer to stifle any thought, or debate that does not fit into the approved thoughts of the day.
Would find it so interesting, or funny, if mr.myers were attacking the Muslim or Jewish religions, or encouraging others do so?
What many folks don’t know, is that mr. myers seems to have a warm spot for the Islamic religion. We know this from his spirited defense of Islam in the past, he insists Islam differs from other religions. It seems that mr.myers can’t even be a good atheist.
His thesis is that, it’s wrong to attack Islamic houses of worship and symbols, because they are poor and minorities. At least that is what a reasonable person would gather from mr. myers past statements.
That Islam is the largest religion in the world is of no matter to this professor.
why is that? Would not Islam be a fair target for mr.myers disgusting
attacks as well? If you believed that the attacks on Catholics are fair, even correct, then why not
other religions that hold that there is a God. Is Islam less wrong about this then Catholicism or Judaism mr. myers?
My feeling is that mr.myers would never dare attack Muslims, or their beliefs. Even though as an atheist, you think he would. I mean just to be fair. I hate to use a military term here, but my feeling is that Catholics are just easy targets for people like mr. myers.
As mr. myers, should know, and most intellectually honest people do know, attacking the Muslim religion or advocating attacks of it’s symbols and traditions would not have resulted in a stupid but boorish email from a “Nutjob whacko, and all-around asshole catholic ” as ole ylooshi here, so eloquently posted above.
It may very well have resulted (if the recent 30 or so year past is any indication) with the good professor hearing the words Allah Akbar shouted into his ear, while not so nice things were happening to him, perhaps things like, being shot in the lobby of a travel agency, being thrown overboard of his cruise ship, or being shot at the airport ticket counter at lax, or maybe being driven over by a student in the college parking lot, could be the bus he rides would have been torn to shreds by a homicide bomber, or even being murdered while riding his bicycle to work, or perhaps he would have been sitting at his office computer, when one the offended folks drove an airplane through his window.
Now I ask you, if that’s a fact. am I lying.
C. Kroll,
Brookhaven, NY
p.s. it is my prayer that none of these terrible acts that I mentioned above happen to the good professor, or any other American for that matter. Jew, Christen, Muslim, or even atheist.
Well I think you learned your lesson about making death threats from someone else’s email address. If she doesn’t leave you, at least I hope she holds you accountable.
Anyone checked Pharyngula? 😉
More Muslim envy. And a scary grouping of fantasies you have going there. Get help… sending threats of bodily harm is not normal social behavior.
Well, C Kroll, nice work. Did you also confess to 1-800-FLOWERS?
If you are being truthful, it isn’t Myers’ nor his minions’ fault that Melanie is unemployed, it is unequivocally YOUR fault. You claim an error, but please, continue to rationalize your actions as accceptable, even though it was clearly a threat. A threat is a crime, which you may be learning more about if the info was forwarded to the FBI.
“However, I think it is his duty to repair the damage that he and his associates have achieved through their concerted and organized campaign to punish both Melanie Kroll, and 1-800-flowers, who were completely blameless in this matter.
However, this whole incident has caused someone who had nothing to do with the email to mr.myers,.a wonderful, sweet person who would never threaten anyone terrible troubles. Great harm has been done to this wonderful lady,”
Oh man you are such a looser. YOU are responsible for Melanie’s employment termination. Your whiny attempts to twist the blame show what a weak sleazy selfish obnoxious person you are. *Accidentally* using someone else’s work email to send death threats? Yeah right!!
Am I the only one who felt nauseous reading this guys crap?
If you are being truthful, it isn’t Myers’ nor his minions’ fault that Melanie is unemployed, it is unequivocally YOUR fault. You claim an error, but please, continue to rationalize your actions as accceptable, even though it was clearly a threat. A threat is a crime, which you may be learning more about if the info was forwarded to the FBI.
If she let ckroll use her computer, that is typically against standard IT policy and her being fired is par for the course.
Now I ask you, if that’s a fact. am I lying.
Virtually every word you wrote about Myers in re Islam is
a lie.
Thanks, Rev, you are exactly right. Either she wrote the threat or she failed to protect the email account. C Kroll suggests it is the latter.
His thesis is that, it’s wrong to attack Islamic houses of
worship and symbols
If you mean like blow them up, yes, he’s against that. He’s
against doing that to Christian houses of worship and
symbols, too.
because they are poor and minorities.
Uh, no. But this statement suggests that you have a
dislike for the poor and minorities.
At least that is what a reasonable person would gather
from mr. myers past statements.
How would someone like you, incapable of reason, know
what a reasonable person would gather?
C. Kroll
“this email to the so called professor”
And that’s when 90% of people stopped reading.
He’s really, really a professor, and throwing around the casual “so-called” does nothing but alienate your audience and make them think you’ve been similarly sloppy with any fact-claims you present.
“charged with teaching children biology”
University students are not children. Again, sloppy.
“but for people in positions of responsibility and with the power to encourage captive undeveloped minds to attack their neighbors beliefs is just insane,”
Blog readership is a captive audience? I must admit his blog is addictive, but if you don’t like it, don’t read it.
Either you do not understand, or wish to mislead others into not understanding that PZ’s professional duties and personal blog have nothing to do with each other. In the classroom he is religiously neutral, just-the-facts. On the blog he is an outspoken atheist, and he has every right to be.
“I wonder if that university where mr. myers is employed excepts any money from the state? And I wonder if the good people of this state know that they are paying good, hard earned tax dollars on such a disturbing creature as mr. myers.?”
Stupid and irrelevant: just because you are a professor does not mean you give up your free speech rights on your own time and on your own blog.
You are just hoping to tattle-to-daddy in the hopes PZ will get spanked for saying something you didn’t like. Tough. Pz has the right to say whatever he likes, and so do you (short of death threats, moron). You do not have the right to censor speech you don’t like. Live with it, and enjoy your upcoming jail time.
Catholics give away the wafers, right? Then taking them is not stealing.
Let me summarize:
Kid wants to show friend in pew catholic cracker.
Kid is assaulted about cracker and flees church.
Kid receives threats of homicide from Catholics.
PZ says this is stupid and threatens crackercide.
PZ receives threats of homicide from Catholics.
Everyone talks about what a big meanie PZ is for making fun of Catholics oh-so-precious beliefs.
Just stupid.
This post from ckroll does not reassure me. I would explain but prefer not to muddy the waters further.
PZ, it is in your best interests to forward the matter to the FBI. They’re in the best position to investigate and sort fact from fiction. They also can do background checks re: prior convictions. And they can advise you as to how you ought to deal with the several similar threats you will be receiving over the years to come.
Good job, you’ve cost your wife her job.
You care more about a cracker than your wife.
How come ckroll can’t spell “christian”?
It’s the antepenultimate word ofthe penultimate line of his enormously long post.
A point of clarification. There is no evidence that the student in question had a Ziploc bag in his pocket in preparation for “kidnapping” the communion wafer. He simply put the wafer in a Ziploc bag after getting away from those who physically assaulted him at mass. There does not appear to have been any kind of premeditation on his part. A tiny incident has been magnified into a supposedly heinous crime by the overreaction of supposedly Christian people toward a fellow Christian.
Cry me a frickin’ river, Chuckie. YOU sent a threatening message. Nut up, boy. If you make threats, take responsibility for them. You’re acting like the rapist who gets caught, and blames the woman for wearing a short skirt. YOU are in control of your actions. YOU make the choices about how to respond to things. No one else. The worst of this is that YOU threatened somebody, YOU got caught, and YOUR WIFE paid the price for it. Some man you are, letting your wife take the hardest hit for YOUR stupidity and irrationality.
Jeebus on a Triscuit, GROW UP.
In defense of Chuck Kroll, the incidents he mentioned have happened, such as the wheelchair-bound Mr. Klinghoffer (if memory serves) being tossed overboard a cruise ship and the Dutch filmmaker being stabbed by a Muslim radical.
But that’s about all I can defend.
Mr. Kroll, you need to do something that conservatives champion, and that is to take personal responsibility. It is your fault that your wife has lost her job. Had you not been so foolish as to send that ridiculously impotent e-mail from your wife’s work account, she would not have lost her job.
Your e-mail reads as if you did not progress far in education. Well, school isn’t out. You have just undergone a powerful lesson. I hope you learn from it.
I’m neither an ardent supporter nor critic of Mr. Meyers. I read his blog and the comments there as a form of (intellectual) entertainment – occasionally funny, occasionally dramatic, etc.
The death threats (against him and the unfortunate UCF student) and campaign to get PZ fired destroyed any sympathy I had for the catholic point of view in that situation. They were wholly unjustified, and far less tolerant than any possible claim of “sacrilege” which might be made.
I’ve watched the blog comments (from both sides) about the whole thing, and came across something yesterday that seems remarkably perceptive. There was a discussion of people who make a snarky comment, and when they see it offends people, are quick to retort “It was a *joke*”.
I find both sides in this particular drama guilty of it. PZ for suggesting the “wanton kidnapping of Christ”, and Mr. Kroll for claiming his threats were meaningless. Both people are (supposedly) adults, and should have understood to implications of publically advocating distasteful actions, even if they “didn’t really mean everything they said”.
In short, no, “I’ll beat your brains in” is definitely not perceived as harmless e-Threat, because that is not how it was intended. And no, it wasn’t justified.
“However, this whole incident has caused someone who had nothing to do with the email to mr.myers,.a wonderful, sweet person who would never threaten anyone terrible troubles. Great harm has been done to this wonderful lady, without proof or a question asked, you just accuse, and assume. Wow and I thought you liberal folks were supposed to be the open minded ones.”
“This whole incident”?? What a tool you are… YOU cost your wife her job, not the guys who snitched on your idiotic behaviour. That’s like the con blaming the eyewitness for his murder trial. Own up to your own responsibilities like any normal grown adult, and don’t hide behind the stupid “lib’rulzz!!” crap.
I just hope you learned your lesson: not only is your fervour hurting you, but your loved ones.
“…that the same people who put so much effort into harming Melanie Kroll, will use as much effort to right the wrong that has been done to her.”
Yeah, Chuck, get to work. You have a lot of work to do.
Sheesh, the very fact that you blame everybody else for your idiotic actions shows your level of personal responsibility.
I hope the feeling of satisfaction was worth it, Chuck. That’s all.
Chuckie, Chuckie, Chuckie…between your inane rationalizations and the myriad of spelling, grammatical and logical errors, it’s hard to know where to start (or stop) making fun of you. Your little screed here surely didn’t do you or your wife any favors.
You need professional help.
“In closing I still maintain that if mr. myers. Or anyone, who is encouraging people to desecrate the Eucharist, or if he is doing so himself, I would like to beat his brains in, would I? I don’t know.
I’ve never done so before. Though, at that one moment when I was reading his statements..?
I suppose If I caught him doing it, I would try to stop him. ”
So, you are still insinuating that you would assault Professor Meyers and that only lack of opportunity prevents you from doing so? Your “apology” shows the same lack of judgment that your death threat does.
I feel bad for Melanie Kroll but, as I’m sure her husband can explain, “God works in mysterious ways” and the unfortunate events that befall you are meant to be taken as lessons. In this case, God is telling her that she’s married to a crackpot, a moron, a loon, and a crank all rolled into one.
On the bright side, she got to use some vacation days before the hammer came down!
Chuck, just keep in mind, when the time comes for the government to require you to likewise react instead of thinking, and to act out of fear/hatred instead upon reflection, you have shown that you will be happy to accomodate.
That is the whole point of PZ Myers’ threat against a communion wafer – 1) that religious people teach atheists how to treat believers by overreacting and being total tools; 2) that the believers’ hysteria over trinkets and idols rather than principles is just another form of “materialism” after all (far more so than the scientist’s reverence for the natural world); and 3) that people will threaten each other over religion, instead of unload religion for the sake of each other.
A wise person once said, “Of what use are arguments over the soul? Religion is kindness.” But I am convinced that religion will be kindness when religion is utterly banished from our existence.
You, Chuck, are proof of that.
It’s the fault of those evil politically correct liberals? Huh? It wasn’t the fault of the guy who wrote a crazed email and hit send, with or without looking to see which address or network it was coming out of? Dude, if you go into violent mode so easily it sounds like she needs to get the children (it looks like she has three children but the punctuation on that entire post was so horrible that it’s hard to tell) and herself out of there as soon as possible. No one made you send that email. It’s not the fault of people who aren’t going to tolerate your violent outbursts. It’s your fault. Live with that.
As for your (and every other mouth breather who seems to be supporting the cracker) wish that he would say or do something to disrespect islam I have one question. Are you guys able to use a search engine or are you so angry that you can’t type key words properly?
It’s only a book .
“charged with teaching children biology”
Since when are college students, virtually all of whom are over the age of 18, and most of which are between the ages of 19-26, “children”?
Typical–“He’s just lucky he picked on us nice Christians who really wouldn’t ever hurt a fly! He better be glad he didn’t pick on those icky Muslims who’d shoot him just as soon as look at him!”
Really, some folks just can’t appreciate irony.
You know C Kroll. Blieve it or not. The whole sacrilege P. Myers was supposing to do with the Eucharists and everything, or whatever, was supposed to be a pretty sarcastic statement and not something he would actually do. It was merely to show how stupid the whole “eucharist affair” was. I mean the affair about the student who wanted to show the eucarist to a friend who didn’t know pretty much about the Catholic Church traditions; and got severely scolded about it. That student even had death treats. Only because of an innocent mistake of not eating the eucharist.
But noone amongst the religious people, except those who were critical enough, thought it was a little bit an over reactive behavior coming from the Catholics about it. Many didn’t want to understand, and prefered look into their anger and shocking to find an answer.
What is the most important in this story : the well being of the Eucharist tradition or the well being of the people (by avoiding them having problems and such) ?
In my humble opinion, it was the first one who was the most privileged as I’ve seen from the reactions of the religious people.
And that’s pretty much what made a part of the Atheists angry by reading their reactions.
Firing Melanie Kroll because her husband misappropriated her work computer to send an e-mail is Not On, however you look at it. The content of the message is irrelevant. If someone steals your car and runs down a pedestrian, is it your fault? Even if it’s well known that the factory-fitted locks weren’t up to the job of preventing the car from being stolen, locks aren’t in the MOT test. (Or weren’t last time I checked. It’s been awhile since.)
And draconian IT policies are almost always an indication of incompetent IT staff.
For the record (in case anyone took chuck’s tirade seriously), PZ has a long history of disrespecting Islamic lunacy just as much as that of any other religion. In response to a man getting arrested for a hate crime when he threw the Koran in a toilet, PZ proposed desecrating the Koran in protest. The statements chuck alludes to can be found in his post on the Danish Mohammed cartoons, which PZ criticizes as a case of the “majority poking a minority with a sharp stick,” which is statement about European scapegoating, not about Islam worldwide. He’s also clear that he always supports being critical of the religion qua religion, just not when it involves pinning all your problems on outsiders. Catholics don’t really fit the bill in US society (at 23.9%, they’re the second largest religious affiliation).
This is just too good, I bet this guy will get a honorary position in George Hrabs “Religious Moron of the Week” bit.
And to think teaching students science in the form of biology is something heinous just prooves his complete failure to comprehend and take in the real world.
What a complete kook and aspiring asshat!
“The content of the message is irrelevant. If someone steals your car and runs down a pedestrian, is it your fault? ”
Ms. Kroll was responsible for controlling access to her email account. Do you have some evidence that Mr. Kroll picked the “lock” and **hacked** into her company account?
What do you think 1-800-Flowers should do? Say, “Oh, your husband confessed? No problem, Melanie. Keep doing what you are doing!”
“Your e-mail reads as if you did not progress far in education. Well, school isn’t out. You have just undergone a powerful lesson. I hope you learn from it.”
I believe the phrase is OHHHH SNAP!
love thy neighbor…by threatening to beat his brains in!!
Crock you’re not a christian, you’re a scumbag and you got what you deserve.
I hope the missus AT LEAST has you sleeping on the couch for a month.
[…] Here is his whole ”confession.” […]
I was one of the people who forwarded Kroll’s email to various interested parties at 1-800-FLOWERS. I’m certainly glad I did. I’m not glad that his wife was fired because of his moronic actions, but all large companies have very clear policies about the use and abuse of company property and accounts, and if she has bad enough judgment to marry someone who what do what Kroll did, then maybe she does deserve it.
I read about half of Kroll’s posting here before the sheer ungrammatical, whiny inanity of it became too much to bear. He clearly doesn’t understand (or pretends not to) the difference between PZ’s day job and his Pharyngula hobby. As someone else said, you don’t give up your free-speech rights just because you teach at a public college, Kroll.
Kroll’s trying to blame his wife’s misfortune on the people who shopped him to the company and (presumably) the law-enforcement authorities is sickening on so many levels. I’ve never seen such a blatant case of denial of responsibility in my life. The company fired your wife because of YOUR actions, Kroll, not because of the people who reported them. If anyone can make amends here it’s you, but to be honest, if I was your wife, I’d be looking to get my marriage annulled pretty damn quickly.
As for PZ’s post that cause this kerfuffle: more power to him! The response to it from people like Kroll show’s exactly why we SHOULD be making a stand against these dangerous ignoramuses.
“who what do what Kroll did” should read “who would do what Kroll did”. Sorry
C Kroll, you have no one to blame in this matter but yourself. You need to do some serious soul searching. I suggest you get down on your knees, beg your wife’s forgiveness and beg her not to divorce you, then get some help.
[…] 1800 Flowers, has supposedly fired her for misuse of work resources. Her husband came online and said he did it. He seems to apologize, but doesn’t sound too apologetic. There are many folks that read, […]
[…] final twist here, is that Mrs. Kroll evidently didn’t send the message at all. Her husband confessed to doing it: The fact is, that this email to the so called professor, was sent by an angry male […]
As someone raised Catholic, I must says that you are one sorry f-ing excuse for a Catholic. As are all of the players in the UCF fiasco.
must say. oops.
AJS said: Firing Melanie Kroll because her husband misappropriated her work computer to send an e-mail is Not On, however you look at it. The content of the message is irrelevant. If someone steals your car and runs down a pedestrian, is it your fault?
—————————————————–
AJS, the analogy is better if you consider an employee who gives the keys to a company car to her husband, who then injures someone while driving drunk. The employee has a duty of care to properly steward the company’s property and can be fired for failing in that duty. She’s not liable for the injury, but is liable for the failure to properly perform her job.
Ooh, my, aren’t we big-hearted. Even atheist.
Melanie Kroll is not blameless in this. She let a ‘tard use her email, and must bear the responsibility for the use of that computer account. It’s unfortunate, I agree, but there’s a harsh lesson to be learned here about letting people use your credentials on-line.
It’s not like this is a brand new issue. Computer security nerds have been telling people this for years: Don’t let other people use your computer accounts. It’s written into every user agreement at every company everywhere.
I would say that a reasonable alternative to firing her might be a 15-day unpaid suspension, and loss of computer access privileges. That latter may be the same as firing, however.
C Kroll: That’s Dr. Myers, you ignorant buffoon.
What a maroon. Didn’t think you’d leave the equivalent of a cyber-finger print in sending that e-mail, did you? In fact, I feel safe in saying you didn’t think at all.
You state you’re 1000 miles away from Dr. Myers…yeah like this is the 14th century and it would take a life time to travel that. Or like you couldn’t find him based on information from his blog.
In a day and age where disgruntled employees take out their rage with guns, in an age where violence is often used, what did you really think was going to happen when you sent such a threat?
Jeebus H. Christmas on a hockey puck, go see a doctor to undo that Cranial Rectal Inversion you are suffering from.
Wow, Chuck, despite the pain you’ve caused your family you still clearly have no understanding of what actually happened. Stop whining, act like a man for once and admit that the situation is 100% your fault.
Here is the sequence of events:
1. PZ Myers made you really mad
2. You threatened to KILL HIM, and you did this sick thing using your wife’s corporate email account
3. Concerned people contacted the business to inform them that a DEATH THREAT was being sent from their network (wouldn’t you do the same thing if someone threatened to kill you or your wife?)
4. the company took action against the owner of the account, which unfortunately was your wife, not her moron husband
5. You started whining
You need to grow up.
Well, there ya go C.Kroll. spreading the “turn the other cheek” message. Um, I am like so ready to become one with the lud right now. I hope your wife leaves you for your idiotic use of her computer. So, how you gonna reconcile that with jebus?
Oh one last thing…..
Many are still blaming and assuming Melanie ‘allowed’ her husband to send the e-mail.
Hypothetically speaking…let’s say it was sent using something like OWA and her user name and password were either known by her husband or stored in the browser, it is completely plausible that the e-mail could have been sent w/out her knowledge.
Do I think that is the case, no, but it is a possibility one must consider…..
“this email did not come from 1-800-flowers, or anyone connected in anyway shape or form to that company, which happens to provide good paying jobs, for lot’s of folks who might otherwise not have them.”
This sentence is not quite accurate–the email WAS sent through the computer systems of 1-800-Flowers. And that’s why they were quite right to fire the employee whose acts or omissions allowed that to happen.
I don’t think that people who informed 1-800 Flowers that you’d used your wife’s e-mail account to send death threats acted unfairly, or that they now owe you any sort of redress.
Your faith has cost your wife her job. That’s your responsibility. The fact she thought you could be trusted to use the internet is hers.
Wow, Mr. Kroll is not only almost literate enough to complete a post but he’s disingenuous throughout the entire thing.
You, sir, need some help.
Mr Kroll: exactly how is it evident that Dr Myers “seems to have a warm spot for the Islamic religion”? Can you offer an example of “his spirited defense of Islam”? I am aware of no such thing. I *am* aware that he has spoken out, emphatically and eloquently, against many of the things that fundamentalist Muslims do and have done — his commentary on Ayaan Hirsi Ali and on the Taliban’s destruction of the giant Buddha statues are but two recent examples of such criticism. If “he insists Islam differs from other religions” he is not doing so to place it in a position of favour: if anything, I am sure that he would agree that (in the present-day world) Islamic fundamentalism is more violent (and thereby a greater immediate threat) than is Christian fundamentalism. However, he is also (and says as much often) an equal-opportunity offender: he is far more interested in arguing against religion in general than against (or for) any one religion.
Again, if there are any examples of anything that Dr Myers has said that actually confirm your statements about him, I would be interested in reading them — quotes, mind you, not innuendoes, inferences, or inventions.
It’s OK. Chuck doesn’t have to apologize or accept responsibility for getting his wife fired –all he has to do is go to confession.
Wow. After reading the confession, I must say that I have an even lower opinion of the person who sent the message than I did before. Not only does his apology not seem sincere, since about half of it is dedicated to justifying his anger and ranting on about PZ Myers, but his level of literacy and education does not belong even in High School. He apparently never learned to double check his writing.
hey Todd,
Brilliant Revelation!
actually no one assumed that dude.where the hell did you get that idea?Most of us have known since the first time Melanie started responding to emails coming in that she didnt know what was going on.
way to be on the ball ,Todd
I notice Mr Kroll has not come back. Let’s hope he’s currently reading the Pharyngula post linked to above where PZ threatens to do something ugly and unspecified to a copy of the Qur’an, and the comments to that post.
Assuming he’s in the habit of reading, that is…
Mr Kroll, If you are going to apologize do it right, don’t try to justify your actions by blaming PZ. This is completely your fault and there is no justification for what you did.
New term: kroll
A “kroll” is a troll that sends or posts aggressive insults and/or physical threats.
Sentence example:
Chucko the Clown is an ignorant unrepentant kroll who cost his allegedly innocent wife her job and humiliated both of them in public.
I am sorry to hear that Melanie Kroll has lost her job due to the crass threats of her deluded husband. I hope PZ can intercede on her behalf. I am sure he didn’t want Melanie to lose her job, unlike the bigoted, acerbic, and terminally stupid Bill Donohue’s acerbic vendetta against PZ.
Apparently Mr Kroll, who claims to be a big fan of Christ, thinks that the Christian thing to do in response to an affront is to respond in nuclear fashion. It’s not even the Biblical ‘an eye for an eye’ (which endorses the punishment being equal to the crime) but “an life for harsh words.” Insane. What a giant, raging asshole. And, even worse, an internet bully. Internet bullies. who hide behind anonymity, are damn near the lowest form of life.
Apparently Mr Kroll misses out on the ‘turn the other cheek’ message from the Sermon on the Mount, as well.
Looking past the fact that Mr Kroll was actually physically threatening to harm someone (which is illegal), it seems clear that he’s ignorant of the teachings of his own religious tradition. Unless Christ would have called people “cunts” and threatened to beat in their brains (and their children, by implication), and that’s a passage of the Bible I’ve never read…
To all the brain dead posters attacking Mr. Kroll – grow up and grow some brain cells. The majority of the comments made on this topic are not original thoughts – they are fed via group-mates or profs.
Apparently the lot of you can do the same thing he did – personally attack, threaten, insult an individual – and for some reason you are above judgement.
The articulation of his passion was not ‘politically correct,’ his grammar was not exceptional, his verbiage was less than stellar resorting to the level that is apparently prevalent in the world today (that of using 4-letter cuss words rather than intelligent, witful comments) – yet he reached an audience of the same mentality from the read of the commentaries.
He made some good points that the commenting public tend to lend weight.
He has a right to be loyal to his belief system. He has the right to vocalize with passion.
Mr. Meyers may be a PhD and he may hold a position as a teacher – he is evidently not qualified to be referred to as a true teacher. He imposes his opinions upon others rather than helping his students learn to think on their own. Meyers got his moment of glory – which is what he was striving for. He took a teeny ant hill and made it into Mt. Everest and the angry liberals jumped up and down on the bandwagon. Well trained mind numb talking point spewing robots you are. Good Job!!!
All of you elitists on this board – that ‘ignorant conservative’ made some interesting points – did you catch them?
At least Mr. Kroll had the courage to stand up and admit that he sent the communication. How many of you would have been so honest?
At least he had the courage to stand up for what he believes in – even if that is against the bully pulpit. He did not gang up on one individual – he addressed the one individual singularly. Unlike the many cowards on this board. Group think at work.
He does need to work on his skills of communication – yet who doesn’t?
OK, in the interest of offending all religions equally, how about this to start a new thread:
“It’s just a frakken meteorite!”
However, I think it is his duty to repair the damage that he and his associates have achieved through their concerted and organized campaign to punish both Melanie Kroll, and 1-800-flowers, who were completely blameless in this matter.
This is a testament to Mr Kroll’s ability to kid himself about who is really responsible for his wife’s firing. He is. I was married to an idiot once, too. Getting rid of him was the best thing I ever did. I hope Melanie is listening. And I don’t care how far away from Mr. Myers you live. Threats of violence are unacceptable by rational adults in a civilized society. I hope charges are sought against you for this behavior. My condolences to your wife and any children you may have had.
“I am going to write to mr. Myers and offer him my apologies for using such childish language, and the threatening way ”
Mr Kroll acted out of emotion rather than thinking it through before he sent his nasty e-mail to PZ using a business account at his wife’s work. There is no question Meyers is at war with religion or Christianity. There is no question he likes to insult people’s beliefs whom he disagrees with, but certainly this doesn’t mean one should lower themselves even further by sending him nasty e-mails. I hope Mr Kroll is sincere in his apology and is not doing it because he got caught. Next time when someone insults or disagrees with his beliefs, he should think first before reacting so the response is mature not immature and disrespectful.
“I am sorry to hear that Melanie Kroll has lost her job due to the crass threats of her deluded husband. I hope PZ can intercede on her behalf. I am sure he didn’t want Melanie to lose her job, unlike the bigoted, acerbic, and terminally stupid Bill Donohue’s acerbic vendetta against PZ.”
We don’t know the extent of Ms. Kroll’s culpability in this matter. She may have regularly granted her husband access to the corporate email account and this may not be the first threat he has sent via that account. The person claiming to be Mr. Kroll certainly seems stupid enough to have done the same thing in the past–you don’t “accidently” send an email from your email program as opposed to a web-based hotmail or gmail account–and even those are IP logged.
Considering his anti-Muslim sentiments, it is ironic that by reacting to disrespect to his own religion with a death threat, Mr. Kroll has proven himself a spiritual brother to the Muslims who reacted similarly to the cartoons of Muhammad.
“I wrote this in the same way one does when saying “I’ll beat your ass”, “or kick I’ll kick your butt” or other such niceties used by members of the unpolished masses, such as myself.
I live a thousand miles away from this guy.”
I love how people fall back on this kind of post-hoc rationalization. It may have been an empty threat, but how can anyone know that in advance?
Chuck, I dare you to say publicly that you are going to kill the president this weekend. Let’s see if the FBI laughs it off.
In C. Kroll’s defense, however, it WOULD be terrifying having one’s brains “beat in” by what would appear to be a barely literate, blue-collar religious zealot, who acts in defense of religion, yet whose religiosity is rendered wholly trivial and disingenuous by the Old Testament-ness of his threats. Why, it’s almost scarier than the prospect of having one’s head sawed off live on al-Jazeera!
I just didn’t want him getting the wrong idea that something like that isn’t genuinely threatening. You def scared me, bro! Good one!
I can hardly believe my very eyes. We have a professed decent, Christian gentleman seeking only to defend his faith? Give me a break. I rarely ask myself “so what would Jesus do?” but the answer is something like “not this.”
Threatening to violently attack another person is not defending the faith. It is demeaning the faith.
What is more, his racist and bigoted language in his email and the highly offensive message (meant perhaps to improve his case?) only make things worse.
I am glad to see the result in this case: justice is done.
DM wrote: “Mr. Meyers may be a PhD and he may hold a position as a teacher – he is evidently not qualified to be referred to as a true teacher. He imposes his opinions upon others rather than helping his students learn to think on their own.”
What possible evidence do you have for this? Have you attended any of PZ Myers’ lectures? Do you even understand the difference between his role as a teacher and that of a blogger? Your whole post was pretty dimwitted, but this was the worst part of all.
DM:
“Apparently the lot of you can do the same thing he did – personally attack, threaten, insult an individual – and for some reason you are above judgement.”
Has anyone here actually threatened him? I haven’t seen any threats towards Kroll, so if there are we’d all certainly like to know so that we can help keep our own in check. If that’s not the case and you’re just making it up, then…
“He has a right to be loyal to his belief system. He has the right to vocalize with passion.
Mr. Meyers may be a PhD and he may hold a position as a teacher – he is evidently not qualified to be referred to as a true teacher. He imposes his opinions upon others rather than helping his students learn to think on their own.”
Here’s where you indict yourself. Kroll has a right to be loyal to his belief system, and Myers has a right to mock Kroll for his belief system, as do the rest of us. See how it goes both ways? Kroll may also have the right to vocalize with passion, but he doesn’t have the right to send what looks like a serious threat from his wife’s account. Thanks for playing.
Also, Myers blog is not related to his curriculum. He doesn’t teach his students about religion, he teaches them about biology. If he was forwarding these posts to his students, you would be right about him imposing on the students. But he’s not. You’re making crap up out of thin air. If you know it, you’re a liar. If you don’t, you’re a fool.
I do DSL support for a major ISP. I think I can guess how Mr. Kroll came to send the e-mail from his wife’s account….
Many businesses (and quite a few individuals) use e-mail client programs, typically various versions of Outlook and Outlook Express on MSwindows machines or MacMail on Mac OS X machines. If you have multiple e-mail adresses in one of these programs, one of them will be tagged as “default” and, unless changed when you send an e-mail, the default address will be used as the “from” address for any e-mail.
At a guess Mrs. Kroll’s machine was set up this way and Mr. Kroll–in his rage–forgot to change the from address. Understandable, in a stupid sort of way, but poor setup in any case.
On any reasonbly modern machine (WinXP, Vista, Mac OS X, Linux), access can be separated by login account and mail clients can be set differently for each account in order to prevent something like that–at least to extent that the error would be sending e-mail inadvertently from ones own work account, rather than that of someone else.
It is also a sad fact of life that a great many PC users have no idea how their machines work, let alone how to properly set up an e-mail client (hence the many calls we get over e-mail problems).
I find it interesting that the entity who comes out of c kroll’s rant looking the best is 1-800-Flowers. Granted, this is very likely just part of an attempt to flatter the company while simultaneously (and rather clumsily) asking for his wife to be reinstated as an employee.
But I do find it curious that he finds it so necessary to exonerate 1-800-Flowers. I’ve been following this story, and nowhere did I read even a hint of suspicion that the Myers threat was endorsed by this saintly corporation. EVERYone knew this was an idiot who accidentally/on purpose sent an ill-advised email from a work account.
I’m not sure what my point is here–the guy is still an ass. Just thought it was interesting that he went out of his way to praise the flower company so highly (and thought it was interesting that he specifically mentions the hiring of “single” mothers when he seems to identify M Kroll as a married mother, but I digress…).
So anyway, thanks, c kroll. I agree not to hold 1-800-Flowers responsible for that stupid thing you did. I’m glad you cleared that up for me.
C Kroll,
You may not have been serious about your threat, but what are PZ and the rest of us supposed to think when he receives dozens of hateful diatribes in span of a few days, including six threats of violence? How are we supposed to divine which ones are serious and which ones are bluster? It only takes one lunatic.
You, sir, are not a lunatic, but you ARE an idiot, full of misperceptions about what PZ does for a living and what the relationship of his personal blog is to his professional work. You’re also an idiot for being so careless about emailing him and getting your wife into trouble.
And let’s make that clear: you got your wife into trouble, not us. We just called you on it.
I wish I had some power to get your wife’s job back, because she doesn’t deserve to suffer for your stupidity, but I don’t. I will send 1800FLOWERS a message in support of her.
As for you, I hope you learned something from this. Unfortunately, I don’t think you did. You still tempered your “apology” with:
“In closing I still maintain that if mr. myers. Or anyone, who is encouraging people to desecrate the Eucharist, or if he is doing so himself, I would like to beat his brains in, would I? I don’t know.”
Why don’t you read your Bible and review what Jesus had to say about something like that.
I want to chime in with those (including PZ himself) who have expressed sympathy for Melanie in this stupid series of events. Yes, she married you-know-whom, and she appears to have done something (or failed to do something) that allowed him to use her work e-mail account.
It seems to me that the most likely actions on her part that helped lead to the death threat are extremely minor and understandable–doesn’t it appear that all she did was neglect to log out … on a computer in her own home? That’s a small mistake indeed to lead to a firing.
This isn’t a shot at 1-800-Flowers; they all-but-certainly had legal grounds to fire her based on her failure to control access to her work e-mail account, and from their perspective it’s understandable that they can’t allow a situation in which they risk insane/criminal ravings being sent from a 1-800-Flowers IP address. In their shoes I guess I would have fired Melanie, too.
Nevertheless, it’s hard for me to see how the firing isn’t unfortunate, unjust, and sad. Marrying a loser and forgetting to log out from your e-mail account on your home computer are mistakes, but I can’t conclude that they deserve to result in drastic consequences like losing one’s livelihood.
The party obviously responsible for this injustice, though, isn’t PZ Myers, his readers, or 1-800-Flowers. It’s a man who deserves all of the insults that have been heaped upon him in this thread.
I just hope Melanie recovers from this setback and finds her way to gainful employment elsewhere. I think she deserves sympathy.
I think this is C. Kroll’s address. Zillow says the house is worth half a milion dollars. I’d hate to think what property taxes are. Maybe C. Kroll will be working now and have less time during the day to send out death threats.
After reading “Chuck’s” apology, I’m more pissed at him than I was before.
Make all the excuses you want, Chuck, you’re the one who caused this situation. Totally apart from deflecting blame from yourself, you slander PZ in nearly every paragraph. Some things you’d know if you actually read his blog:
– He’s made it clear, on multiple occasions, that he doesn’t “indoctrinate” his students. His views on his personal blog are his personal views. In class, he sticks to his subject, biology, and is apparently one of the more popular professors at his school.
– He’s been every bit as critical of Islam as he has of Catholicism, fundamentalism, Scientology, crystal healing, and every other form of superstition. In a foreshadow of this event he personally offered to desecrate a Koran for chrissakes. Funnily enough, that offer actually resulted in fewer death threats than this one. Makes ya think, I hope.
Seriously if you can point me at the posts where he mollycoddles Islam, I’d like to see them. It should go without saying (but apparently it doesn’t) that supporting someone’s religious views, and saying that you shouldn’t kill them and blow up their buildings, are two different things. If you don’t see the difference – and given that you can barely make out the difference between assaulting a symbol and assaulting a living human being, I’m not sure you’re capable – at least you can serve as a living example that religious belief doesn’t necessarily do much for sharpening one’s moral values.
For whatever it’s worth, a person purporting to be Melanie Kroll has posted a lengthy comment on Greg Laden’s blog regarding the present controversy:
http://tinyurl.com/5a9h63
A “Chuck Kroll” posted the following comment to a blog back in 2006:
That should make you even less sympathetic.
[…] news account is here, and his confession is here; you can send an e-mail encouraging 1-800-FLOWERS to reconsider their termination of the innocent […]
I love the stereotype. The guy deflects the blame and whines about intolerance in breath and in the next complains that no one picks on Muslims who deserve it. The only thing he forgot was some antisemitism.
as a Catholic people like this give me the creeps.
how pathetic, hypocritical, and arrogant.
Hey, Chuck, I see you are somewhat clever. You never admitted to committing a crime (which you did: when you put a violent threat aimed at a named individual in writing, it’s on a different level than just thinking or saying a figure of speech), yet the first part of your post is almost lawyerly in the way you diminish your actions during the attack to make them seem less threatening (just in case you are arrested or sued).
Your wife is an accomplice to your crime by making it possible for you to commit it. That alone guarantees her firing because it is against corporate policy. How will you make it up to your wife? And why does she have to work such a menial job anyway? Aren’t you supposed to be the head of your household?
As someone who was nearly blown up twice in one day by IRA bombs, I find personally offensive your obfuscation of trying to shift the emphasis off of your crime and instead onto the false argument that Muslims are more bloodthirsty than Christians.
You are the liar and you are the criminal. Stop bearing false witness and confess your sins publicly to the police. Then stop working against Christ’s teachings. Pay a little more attention to the beam in your own eye.
““If anything happens to one of those kids, I’m coming after you. And I’m putting it in writing, I don’t care. God help your fagot [sic] communist ass if something happens to even one of those brave kids. I know where you work, it can’t be that hard to find someone as ugly as you. . . You had better pray (opps sorry bad word for you darwinist’s [sic])that nothing happens to even one of those kids on our ships or I will take you out myself, and stand over your body to the police arrive. No jury in this nation would convict me I’m sure. You Bastard.” ”
If that, indeed, is by the same Chuck Kroll, one wonders if the threat to PZ was really the first and only death threat sent by Mr. Kroll via his wife’s 1-800-Flowers email account. Now it seems rather probable that it was not.
The man needs serious help, and all his wife does is enable his violent insanity. She’s defending the jerk, if a post at Greg Laden’s blog can be believed.
Hmm, is there a reason those on Kroll’s side consistently misspell PZ’s last name as ‘Meyers’?
@ Address, on July 16th, 2008 at 11:25 am Said:
I think this is C. Kroll’s address. Zillow says the house is worth half a milion dollars. I’d hate to think what property taxes are. Maybe C. Kroll will be working now and have less time during the day to send out death threats.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
NOT cool.
“However, this whole incident has caused someone who had nothing to do with the email to mr.myers,.a wonderful, sweet person who would never threaten anyone terrible troubles”
Not “this whole incident”, numbnuts – it was YOUR hasty, violent outburst from your wife’s work account, YOUR illegal actions that caused her to lose her job because YOU compromised the integrity of her employers. I didn’t see a whole lot of personal acocuntability or a hint of remorse in your post. I guess that’s what’s to be expected from people who get their morality from a book and never developed a sense of common decency of their own.
Wow.. this guy’s a real winner, eh?
I guess he was too chicken to use his own e-mail address, or his reading skills must be on par with his writing skills. (Which is to say poor at best, though I’d prefer to call them abysmal.)
Then he attempts to place the blame on everyone else he can possibly think of, acting like a scared little child instead of the man he supposedly is.
Then his wife, the genius who decided to marry this guy in the first place, tries to defend him.
Ha!
As far as I can see, the two of them deserve not only what has happened to them, but to be further prosecuted for sending the threat in th first place.
Enjoy unemployment, Melanie. You’ve earned it!
kubenzi, comprehension a bit lacking? Clearly you didn’t read this: If she let ckroll use her computer, that is typically against standard IT policy and her being fired is par for the course.
Which part of “let” and “if” are you incapable of understanding?
So I suppose I may not be ‘on the ball’, but I do have a pretty good grasp of the English language and comprehension skills.
Hi Mr. Kroll,
I would desecrate the Eucharist.
Love,
peetah
DM is a big a fool as Kroll:
“All of you elitists on this board – that ‘ignorant conservative’ made some interesting points – did you catch them?”
Uh, what interesting points did he make? He whined about how his wife lost her job, but refused to take the sole blame for her termination.
“At least Mr. Kroll had the courage to stand up and admit that he sent the communication. How many of you would have been so honest?”
Courage, me arse! Mr. Kroll’s admission was motivated by a desire to save his wife’s job, not any courage or integrity on his part.
Now for you, Kroll, ya troll.
“What many folks don’t know, is that mr. myers seems to have a warm spot for the Islamic religion. We know this from his spirited defense of Islam in the past, he insists Islam differs from other religions. ”
Chuck, you are a disingenuous, lying moron. Do you have any idea what Dr. Myers has written about Islam? Didn’t think so, so stop lying!
“Great harm has been done to this wonderful lady, without proof or a question asked, you just accuse, and assume. Wow and I thought you liberal folks were supposed to be the open minded ones.”
Nice dig at liberals, Chucko. Aren’t you conservatives supposed to be the ones advocating personal responsibility? Great harm was done to this wonderful lady by YOU, ya clown. Also, the characterization that no proof was offered is a flat out lie, the evidence (scientists and atheists are both concerned with evidence for any claims) was looked at, and the trail led to your wife’s computer. Many of the posts on Pharyngula regarding the e-mail postings expressed doubt that your wife actually sent the e-mail, as women rarely send notes threatening to “beat someone’s brains in”. Many commenters sussed out the fact that someone had used her computer in her absence, a large fraction of whom expressed belief that 1-800-FLOWERS had been the victim of a “phishing” incident. Reedink kompreehenshun, ur doin it rong!
You have no one to blame for your wife’s termination but yourself. I sincerely hope she gets her job back, but I hope even more fervently that she divorces you, you pathetic excuse for a man.
DM, that really is a brain dead post! Others have already pointed out the countless flaws in your post. But this one tops it all. Mr. Kroll had the courage to admit that he sent the death thread. How very courageous! Of course, he would have done the same had not somebody forwarded his death threats to the corporation whose e-mail account was used for this and had not his wife lost her job because of his death threats. Right! Mr. Kroll is such a honest person. If you actually had reading skills you would notice that your hero Mr. Kroll tries everything to NOT admit his fault.
Darn, Longtime Lurker was 2 minutes faster to point this out.
DM – when you say:
“At least he had the courage to stand up for what he believes in – even if that is against the bully pulpit. He did not gang up on one individual – he addressed the one individual singularly.”
“Courage”? The courage to make an anonymous death threat? Wow. Do they hand out medals for that kinda courage on your planet?
“Bully Pulpit”. You need to look this term up in the dictionary (or maybe have a knowledgeable adult do it for you). Seriously.
Look up “sophistry” while you’re at it.
What I get from this is, Chuck’s real sorry he got caught, and he’s really sorry he has to suffer for it.
Looks like Chuck’s on his own for dinner tonight.
Cliff
“If someone steals your car and runs down a pedestrian, is it your fault?”
In most US jurisdictions, you are civilly liable for injuries caused through the use of your vehicle regardless as to whether you authorized the activity. This has been true for more than 50 years. And although you may have certain defenses to the presumption of liability, you should expect to be found liable. If it’s a company vehicle that was stolen due to your negligence or violation of company policy, expect to lose your job.(See Ross v Hartman 139 F2d 14, a 1943 federal appellate case where an employee failed to secure his employer’s vehicle and a thief injured a pedestrian.)
Under certain circumstances, you may even be criminally prosecuted for crimes committed by those using your vehicle. (Drug possession is the usual circumstance whereby an individual’s vehicle can be seized and the owner prosecuted, even if the owner was unaware of the use of his vehicle for improper purposes.)
At least Mr. Kroll had the courage to stand up and admit that he sent the communication. How many of you would have been so honest?
Hey, DM – I have also received my share of death threats in my life. However, I would never have the “courage” to send a death threat myself to anyone and then “own up” to it. You are a sick person.
If that -is- Melanie Kroll at Greg Laden’s blog, she is a semi-literate ass biter just like her husband.
After reading that weaselly excuse for an apology, all I can say is I feel sorry for Mrs. Kroll for having to live with such a defensive, violent jerk. He almost says that if he was face-to-face with Myers when the insult was given, he WOULD have attacked him! But if I was 1800flowers, I wouldn’t want an employee who lets her violent, homophobic husband get access to her work email, either (see his quoted blog entry above and his note to Myers). She chooses to live with him and should know what he’s like, so she should have taken steps to prevent him having access to her system.
“Also, the characterization that no proof was offered is a flat out lie, the evidence (scientists and atheists are both concerned with evidence for any claims) was looked at”
You know who else likes evidence? The police.
Also: DM, you are moronic.
I’ve never seen better justification for the admonition against worshiping false idols. Whoever came up with that one hit a bullseye.
I feel bad for the children [no irony or sarcasm intended].
NCGirl: “She chooses to live with him and should know what he’s like”
Go read her supposed post on Greg LAden’s blog. She expressly states that she knows how he reacts:
“My husband went on to the drudge report site that he reads and clicked on a link and came across that man pz’s notice and responded ******as he always does when he is upset.***** Was his text extreme yes it was, would he follow through, never.”
Gee, thanks, Mel. Maybe your husband could have wrote “PS, I won’t really follow through with my threats, for realz” to the end of his death threat. That would have been awesome.
Todd,that actually doesnt matter that you said that.The point is you showed up with a captain fucking obvious comment
PZ Myers has received tons of polite e-mails asking him to respect the beliefs of Catholics, which he refuses to publish. Instead, he publishes 2 threatening e-mails. Considering that there are 1 billion Catholics in the world, I’d say that’s a pretty small number of threats. That’s not to diminish the fact that no one should be threatening this “man”, no matter how juvenile his blog threats to destroy a Catholic Eucharist and post pictures. By the way, the boy in the original case in Florida which sparked Myers’s “destroy a Eucharist” campaign isn’t even Catholic. Perhaps he’s a fan of PZ Myers.
1 billion Catholics? That sounds…exaggerated.
Regardless, the nature of email is that it is a private communication. Myers obviously respected the privacy with the exception of the most egregious offenders.
Had they wanted to have their desires known publicly, there are comment forums – like this one.
Silenced? Get over yourself. What a completely typical “Ohh I’m such a victim” load of crap. Have a sandwich and get some perspective.
T
Don’t send death threats and then complain that the recipient is rude when he posts them in public.
Idiots.
”
Refuses to publish? I was un aware that people were demanding he publish nice letters from Catholics, especially considering that those self same alleged Catholics are also free to comment in the forums!!!
His policy is that he may publish threatening emails, and he didn’t publish all the threatening emails, either, just two of them. And exactly how many death threats by Catholics does it take to matter? I’d say only one, especially given that any death threat can be a real one resulting in a real death, but what is your Magic Number??? Is he really supposed to just publish all of his email correspondence en masse just to please your sense of fairness? I rather suspect that the angry emails from religious people out number the polite ones.
Mr Kroll, your excuses for your silly, threatening behavior show you to be an irresponsible individual above all. Read and re-read your letter out loud until you figure out that it is damned threatening.
As for the obsession with the Eucharist: I would like to point out that it is medieval. Dozens of pogroms were launched against Jews because someone said some Rabbi had stolen one or was doing weird things with it. We are in the 21st century, Mr. Kroll, we know that it’s just a bit of flour and water and that the transubstantiation business is meant symbolically. It ain’t real. Or it is real for you, but not for others, and that is ok too. Your faith, if you truly have it, should carry that well.
PS – Chuck, “beating someone’s ass” – physical violence. “beating someone’s brains in” – death threat. You do realize that without brain function, you’re not alive, right? Words have meaning. You get that, right?
Dear Mr. Kroll,
You wrote: “I think it is his duty to repair the damage that he and his associates have achieved through their concerted and organized campaign to punish both Melanie Kroll, and 1-800-flowers, who were completely blameless in this matter.”
This indicates that you don’t get it. There wasn’t a concerted or organized campaign.
There were a collection of individuals, such as myself, who saw a lunatic writing death threats from a company we do business with and thought “I don’t want to help pay that maniac’s salary.”
Myers did nothing. Be a man. Take full responsibility for your actions.
You screwed up. You cost your wife your job.
You. Not me. Not PZ. You.
She wouldn’t have been fired if you hadn’t sent insane death threats while posing as her.
Saying you didn’t really mean them is meaningless. It’s you trying to avoid responsibility for the fact that you acted in a ludicrously anti-Christian manner. You acted full of hate, rage and physical threats, things that the Bible tends to frown on. And now you’re paying the price.
God did the right thing here. He taught you that hate is bad. Or at least that’s what he tried to teach you.
Sadly, you’re too blinded by rage and idiocy to realize that if your religion is true, then God had a hand in all of this, including the punishing blow that was just dealt to your family.
Read more of the New Testament. It’s clear you forgot nearly everything it was supposed to teach you, asshole.
If the blog owner is reading, please search for “address” and delete the comment purporting to reveal the Krolls’s home address. It’s so inappropriate that it’s probably a fake posted by a troll, but nevertheless, it must go.
At least Mr. Kroll had the courage to stand up and admit that he sent the communication. How many of you would have been so honest?
—
Fortunately, I have never been in a position where I had to admit that I had sent a death threat, because I have never been that insane.
That said, it was a lame admission at best. He blames PZ and others for the loss of his wife’s job, and outright states that it is somehow PZ’s responsibility to get her re-hired.
The guy doesn’t get it. The guy isn’t honorable. He’s a lame, weak, pathetic piece of shit.
His admission is everything I would expect from the kind of person who threatens to kill others over baked goods. Fuck Mr. Kroll. Fuck the fact that he claims he is a victim.
The word of the day is ‘repent’. Mr. Kroll needs to learn that word before he goes around pretending that he’s a Christian. As it stands he’s nothing but a loud, violent, prejudiced asshole who happens to own a Bible. But having read the Bible myself, I am quite sure that Jesus would use him not as an example of a Saint, but as an example of an awful, filthy sinner.
Mr. Kroll-
There is one point on which I’d like to thank you.
I’d like to thank you because I am an atheist, and “religious” people such as yourself do more harm to religion than I, or PZ Myers ever could.
As such, I thank you for proving that Christianity is not a religion of peace, love or tolerance.
I thank you for proving that you are not a true man, who takes full responsibility for the consequences of your actions.
So thank you, Mr. Kroll, for re-proving that many of the most publicly devout “Christians” care nothing for the words of their alleged Saviour.
You’ve done more to defile Jesus than a thousand atheists ever could, and for that I praise you.
Several Catholics and others posted polite (and some not so polite) posts in Myers’ Pharnygula blog. These posts were not censured or deleted. If you or anyone else wishes to comment openly, there are several blogs, including Pharygula, and other websites discussing this matter.
“C Kroll” is an idiot.
If you get pissed off when people point out that crackers aren’t the body of Christ, then don’t fucking read their blogs. It’s not like someone tied you down and forced you to read it.
Who said Melanie is his wife?
I think it’s more likely that C Kroll is an unmarried loser living in his mother’s basement.
And thanks to him, his mom is unemployed right now.
[…] Employee of 1800Flowers.com Issues Death Threats to Professor Well, to be fair, the death threats were probably not a board decision. They appear to originate from a single, […] […]
I liked this bit….
So that chap at the front, with the crackers, spouting about the fire and brimstone to the kids in Sunday School ….hmmmm
Let’s try that again!
I liked this bit…..
[…]There are many folks that read, and biog. at this site who are not religious, perhaps you feel it’s silly, outdated, or superstition, fine. This is your right, but for people in positions of responsibility and with the power to encourage captive undeveloped minds to attack their neighbors beliefs is just insane, divisive, and maybe even criminal.[…]
So that chap at the front, with the crackers, spouting about the fire and brimstone to the kids in Sunday School….hmmmm?
PZ Meyers must really love teh islam… Oh wait… baseless claims fall ill in the light of evidence.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/03/i_generally_favor_the_idea_of.php
ps. Isn’t it strange that so many christians think all atheists are closet muslims that hate america?
politecatholic, grow up. I can ask you in a polite email to stop teaching your children obvious myths but that doesnt mean you have to pay any attention to me. if I were to threaten to take away your kids you should act. That is all that has happened here, unless we take a stand the internet becomes a wasteland for bullies, liars and the insane.
as for the @adress guy, that is NOT on. that is the sort of thing that michelle malkin does so that her mouth breathing readers will go and take a shot at a liberal she doesn’t like. (An oxymoron i know.) as for the wife’s letter on greg laden’s site, I think it was written by kroll himself, whiney disengeuous and full of excuses. It appears that this man has form in threatening other people over freedom of speech issues, finally he has been taught a lesson.
Hey DM,
Kroll didn’t have courage to come forward, as you say.
He was caught.
Big Difference.
Really Big.
But I feel it still won’t be glaring enough to prevent you from celebrating his… ahem…. ‘honesty’
Two things really struck me about DM’s defense of Kroll on this matter. First there was this:
<<>>
This seems to ignore the fact that religion in general, and Catholicism in particular goes out of its way to TELL you, through dogma and doctrine, what to believe. I was given over fifteen years of “that’s just how it is” answers to my queries in Catholic school. How would that be any different? Apparently, telling people what to think is only wrong (according to DM and Kroll) if you’re telling them something contrary to religious belief.
It is also well-worth noting, as others have pointed out, that his BLOG is not his teaching. I would seriously doubt he was instructed his students to desecrate communion wafers. And his blog is protected speech, something I’m sure Kroll would try to use to defend his own attack on Myers if he were to be charged with making threats.
DM also says <<>>
There’s a BIG difference between calling Kroll an asshole, and threatening to beat his ass. I didn’t catch anybody threatening him the way he threatened Myers and his children. Maybe it would have been more ‘Christian’ of most f the posters to avoid calling him names, but Mr Kroll is the acknowledged Christian in our midst and he apparently thinks calling Myers a ‘cunt’ is appropriate, so I say we follow the ‘eye for an eye’ doctrine and call him an appropriate name in return.
I also find the comment from ‘poltitecatholic’ quite amusing. Apparently, speaking one’s mind about someone else’s beliefs is ‘not respecting’ them, and needs to be curtailed. Apparently, once again, Catholics can speak freely about the falsity of secular doctrines, but if someone DARE to criticize a Catholic belief they’ve crossed a line? Nice double-standard. To borrow an idea from yoyo, can I also be offended that your Catholic religious tenets about, say, transubstantiation, offend my belief in the laws of physics?
Sorry. My quotes went missing above. The first was the one about Myers telling people what to think.
The second was about how the posters here did the same thing as Kroll by attacking him.
[…] your business account?? OK Thanks!) But the short answer is that she’s out of a job, and he confessed to the crime. Upon reflection, and reading many of the comments made, I feel that no matter how mad […]
This guy “ckroll” AKA Chuck Kroll, is a real P.O.S.
If he is such a devote “Catholic” or “Christian”, why is he spending his Sunday mornings reading and posting to “blogs” and sending “Death Threats”, and not taking his wife and children to Sunday Mass? Yes, that’s when he sent the offending email, Sunday morning. What a hypocrite and A**hole
Maybe he should revisit his childhood up-bringings of the Christian Ways.
What a waste of a person. I hope she wakes up soon.
OMG – it is spreading !!
I’m beginning to wonder if the C. isn’t the 17 year-old son of this woman.
I hope that someone has brought this whole matter to the attention of the FBI. This Chuck guy apparently likes to make nasty threats over the internet (cowardly). So, perhaps it’s time he spent some hard time to consider his ways.
Yes, in the day and time of “Homeland Security” and terrorism…his ass behavior cannot be overlooked.
IMO, his wife being fired isn’t enough retribution.
@polite catholic silenced: Actually if you bother looking here;
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/i_get_email_special_cracker_ed.php
you will see a post by PZ where he prints a whole list of e-mails he has received. Among the various less nice ones are many that ask him politely not to do what he had threatened to do to the eucharist. But hey, why bother letting the actual truth get in the way of your perceived persecution.
By the way, it is interesting how so many catholics are not only happy at the thought of him criticising islam in the way he does xianity but actually want him to. Nice way to show your xian charity and respect for those of other faiths. If this incident over the ‘fracken cracker’ has done anything it has shown that there is very little difference between various fundy xians and fundie muslims. Except possibly the thankfully secular laws of the USA stopping most fundy xians from carrying out their wished for violence on those that invoke their ire.
***troll food***
When they say conservatives are angry, religious people I think they need to read blog sites such as this one. The hate, anger and redundant attacks flow forth with basically one voice – lack of perception or comprehension of another viewpoint.
As far as Kroll, It is obvious he does not have the strongest grasp of electronic writing. If he did, he would not have allowed his irritation to show in his writing, he would have exercised caution with the phrasing of his words, he would not have left a cookie crumb trail that leads back to the source and he would not have used primitive level words (cuss or foul language).
What has been accomplished with the gang attack mentality observed on these forums? Has the gentleman learned anything more than he is not entitled to free speech yet the liberals are? His opinions are invalid – because mob mentality rules?
Out of the lot of you – I have not seen one post that can turn this into a win-win situation. Anyone that sees outside of the box, scares the group and thus they launch into approval seeking shallow responses.
As far as his points – if they went over the heads of the readers – that is their issue. I do not claim to be a teacher and thus am not going to take on the role of assisting you to parse the communication minus bias.
As far as his honesty – which of you are in his shoes? As far as his passion – kudos to him that he is alive inside.
As to his physical references – obviously there is quite a bit of distance between the object and the source. How often have we all read worse and towards more important people than a silly drone professor that apparently thinks he is more important than he is.
As to his foul mouth – few on these boards speak without 4-letter words showering their conversations – so Stones-Glass House comes to mind.
To any of you that has something you revere and treasure – place what you revere and treasure into the hands of someone that holds no respect for the rights of others. Observe it trashed by an ignorant dolt – then and only then might you vaguely comprehend what this meant to many including Mr. Kroll.
Now that the trolls are fed – it is time to turn off the lights. This playground does not have potential intelligent life forms – it is not enlightening, it is redundant and it is boring.
c kroll, on July 16th, 2008 at 12:11 am Said:
My feeling is that mr.myers would never dare attack Muslims, or their beliefs.
He did it a year ago.
I call Fatwa envy.
DM: […]To any of you that has something you revere and treasure – place what you revere and treasure into the hands of someone that holds no respect for the rights of others. Observe it trashed by an ignorant dolt – then and only then might you vaguely comprehend what this meant to many including Mr. Kroll.[…]
USA. George Bush. Republican Party.
By golly, you’re right – we *do * understand.
All I can say in response to DM’s most recent post is that *most* of the people here don’t challenge Kroll’s right to speak his mind. But the right to speak your mind doesn’t include the right to threaten the life and family of someone you disagree with. And, of course, the great irony is that if you use the right to free speech to defend your right to threaten to harm someone because THEY spoke freely, you’re as hypocrite.
If Mr Kroll was simply making comments about how misguided Myers was on his blog, etc, I’m sure people would trash him, in the same way conservatives slag liberals without mercy on their blogs. But the difference here is that Kroll went a step beyond that, and threatened to harm someone. That’s the issue, and not his apparently limited grasp of language or his use of four-letter words. Kroll can call people cunts all day long, and that’s defensible. But threatening to beat their brains in because he doesn’t agree with their opinions is not. I’ll leave aside the sincerity of his ‘apology’ because I doubt he would have made it if he hadn’t gotten caught.
YOu can call the people on this board bullies all you want, but I never saw anyone threaten to go to Mr Kroll’s house and harm him. The only bully is the person who threatens to beat up someone who has an opinion contrary to his own, and that’s Mr Kroll.
I feel really bad for her if she didn’t do it. I know what it is like to be blamed for something you didn’t do online (but nothing this bad, believe me).
Also, I find it extremely funny that the person who wrote the e-mail spelled “college” wrong and then proceeded to call the blogger a moron.
kubenzi, make up your mind…either I was wrong or you were. Clearly I backed mine up with a quote and reference, proving that my statement was both accurate and to the point. You don’t like getting called to the carpet so you resort to name calling, great next you’re gonna tell me you’re a Catholic…not that there is anything wrong with that. Quit being a troll and acting like CKroll, take responsibility that you were wrong.
[…] apologized, blamed Meyers, atheists, people that hate the Catholic Church, the people that complained to 1-800 […]
If you had the guts to apologize for what you did, someone might be sympathetic. But you threatened a person’s life and cost your wife her job, and still want to put the blame on others.
I hope she divorces you and gets everything.
[…] Inept asshat uses wife’s work account to send death threat. Asshat’s wife (who’s all like “wait, wut?”) is promptly fired. Angry Asshat blames everyone except himself. […]
Chuck, you idiot.
You commmitted more than one federal crime. You DID issue a death threat. You did in the form of an EXTORTION DEMAND.
You gave PZ one month to resign his job, or have his brains beaten in.
There’s no way to read that as anything but an extortion demand incorporating a death threat.
It may have been a hollow threat—I suspect you are a blowhard who wouldn’t do it—but it’s the kind of thing that’s seriously criminal whether you mean to actually do it or not. You didn’t give PZ any good reason to discount your death threat any more than any other.
Putting it in the form of an extortion demand made it sound very serious indeed—do what you say, or else. If I was him, I’d have called in the Feds, and had you checked out, just to be on the safe side.
I pity your wife, and hope she gets her job back, but her employer is entirely within its rights to fire her for letting you abuse her computer account for criminal purposes.
The fact that you live a thousand miles from PZ does not get you off the hook. In fact, issuing extortion demands and death threats across state lines makes you guilty of two very serious federal crimes. You could got to a federal penitentiary for your stupidity.
The fact that you issued death threats and extortion demands over religious opinions may make you guilty of another federal crime or two. You violated PZ’s civil rights of free expression and freedom of religion. (Yes, free exercise of religion includes the right to be overtly non-religious.) I’m not sure what statutes might apply, but you’re lucky that PZ isn’t inclined to go after you legally.
PZ’s actually a nice guy who just vehemently disagrees with your religious views, and I’m sure he doesn’t want you to go to prison, but it’s way past it’s time for you to issue a real apology, and not blame others for your crimes.
Keep in mind that it’s not up to PZ whether you are prosecuted. What you did is criminal and prosecutable whether PZ wants that to happen or not. Showing actual contrition is the best way you can reduce the chance of prosecution. Saying you wouldn’t really bash PZ’s brains in isn’t enough. You need to make it clear that you won’t ever do anything like issuing death threats—even hollow ones—and are sorry for having done so.
Do yourself a favor and own up. If you don’t, you may not be prosecuted, but you will certainly be regarded by reasonable people as an unrepentant criminal.
It seems to me that anger is an appropriate emotion to feel toward the sort of thug who attempts to impose his own opinion upon others by threats of violence and murder. At least nobody here seems to be threatening to go to his home and beat him up, which puts everybody here several steps above Mr. Kroll.
The best part is that she was calling the guy a moron and she didn’t see how he graduated from college…and she didn’t spell college correctly.
dave, http://www.TheHistoryBluff.com
Polite Catholics post made me think of a rhetorical question:
Why do so many people of religious faith [in my experience] confuse “respect my beliefs” with “respect my right to have beliefs”?
Anyway, Youtube Eucharist Challenge! –> http://youtube.com/watch?v=Iq_XZuF6Vsk
Now here is my comment to; C Kroll –
Has anyone paid any mind to the detail of the words presented by this so called “C. Kroll”?
Look at the writing in this post and then compare this to the threat written.
Does this look like the same person write these two things, or does it look like someone who just wants credit for doing something so asinine or maybe even a parent/family member trying to cover up? People wake up!
It doesn’t even matter who wrote this at this point; what matters is threatening someone for writing what they write! I was raised Catholic, went to private schools Lutheran and Catholic, and there are way too many questions that can’t be answered and I have my own beliefs as well. Who is anyone to force me to believe what they do or tell me I am wrong for what I believe or threaten me because they believe a piece of wafer they eat or red cheap wine they drink may actually be a body of Christ or his blood? Does this make them vampires for drinking blood? LOL get real! O – One more thing; if they were so godly then why would they threaten ones life?
If “C Kroll” did really write the threat and then apologize for it (in different writing style & in complete sentences’); what makes you think you deserve forgiveness for threatening another’s life? This is a serious crime, people serve time in jail for things like this, be happy you haven’t been convicted by a jury of your peers! Is this the way a god fearing man treats their brothers??
Some people are just ignorant
Chuck, I hope that your wife dumps your for this stunt. You are one dangerous sociopath.
[…] email (The “P” in the “P.Z.” stands for Paul) […]
[…] when threats were sent from her computer to PZ Myers in MN. Turns out her husband did it, and his rambling online confession sums up why we all are in danger from the adamant ignorance that religious literalism feeds: I […]
Two things-
1) 1-800-flowers gives out laptops?
2) The husband/family doesn’t have his own machine?
Seriously, doesn’t this just stink of a bad sitcom episode? Way too cute wife with good job, gets into mess because of bumbling husband…. DOH….
[…] husband of the employee confessed that it was him, and she was […]
My contribution to the Drama … http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU-R_VCK5Yw
C Kroll you are my hero!!!
I think we all need to look at who is really to blame for this whole situation: Atheism of course!
What has this country come to when a honest to goodness Christian Repblican like C Kroll can get in trouble, just for threatening to kill some liberal atheists? Scientists even!
In a land where George W Bush takes his marching orders directly from Jesus, we are not allowed to threaten or physically attack hethens?? Isn’t that what Jesus wants out of all of US, to become God Warriors??
The libs on this blog won’t think it is so funny when GWB bombs Iran -> WWIII -> Jesus comnig back -> Rapture. I will be raptured up to heaven and you guys will be left behind, sucks to be you!! HAHA LOL!!!
IF any “good” people are reading this you can visit my site: liberalsmustdie.com, but no liberals allowed!
LAK
liberalsmustdie.com just made my Google Reader list! Great stuff and I genuinely laughed out loud several times. You’re giving Cobert Report a run for its money!
Best quote I’ve found so far:
DM attempted an inadequate riposte by saying:
***troll food***
DM uses the “poison the well” fallacy by opening with “troll food,” that way he can have a cowardly way out of having to deal with responders by justifying any rational response to his fallacious and inaccurate statements as “trolls.” Unfortunately, this sort of justification usually occurs in his own ego and we will probably not get the entertainment of yet another inadequate attempt at riposte.
When they say conservatives are angry, religious people I think they need to read blog sites such as this one. The hate, anger and redundant attacks flow forth with basically one voice – lack of perception or comprehension of another viewpoint.
Please clarify: are you saying content originating from me is angry and hateful or that which is posted by commenters? If you are referring to me, please do me the courtesy of citing my “angry” or “hateful” remarks. I suspect, however, that you will likely return with simply remarks, comments, statements and premises for which you merely disagree and wish wouldn’t be said. It is most unfortunate that the superstitious (forgive me for making this assumption, but I suspect you’re religious based on your statements) only see criticism and disagreement with their delusions, superstitions and irrational beliefs as “hatred,” “anger,” and the like rather than the intellectual and rational discourse for which it is. I concede, however, that there is an occasional tone of “anger” in my writing, but such is to be expected when one is writing of injustices like death threats against innocent people by loons and kooks.
What has been accomplished with the gang attack mentality observed on these forums? Has the gentleman learned anything more than he is not entitled to free speech yet the liberals are? His opinions are invalid – because mob mentality rules?
What’s been accomplished is increased awareness and consciousness raising. A major business has had to evaluate it’s IT policies (hopefully for the better) and some Catholics are being exposed for the bigots and irrational people they’ve probably been all along. Anyone that calls for a letter-writing campaign to have a tenured and accomplished professor dismissed because he dared point out the nudity of the emperor is not only a kook and a loon, but they’re a bigot -they demand that rationally minded people accept, embrace or at least tolerate complete and utter nonsense. Idiots like Bill Donohue of the “Catholic League” (which is probably not a league any larger than some middle-aged asshole sitting at a dusty PC in his boxer shorts) don’t just want tolerance for their beliefs -they want others to participate in them! Moreover, the mentality isn’t one of a gang but rather one of a few dozen individuals with varied and diverse opinions of the situation. If you don’t see this in this post thread or those on Pharyngula and Greg Laden’s blogs, then you either haven’t actually read the comments or you’re being intentionally dishonest.
Out of the lot of you – I have not seen one post that can turn this into a win-win situation. Anyone that sees outside of the box, scares the group and thus they launch into approval seeking shallow responses.
Whose “approval” would it be that they seek. Most of the commenters here have been largely anonymous and without links to their own sites or blogs. In addition, who ever said there must be a “win-win?” Indeed, what are the two sides of that hyphen? Is it “cracker-atheist?” “atheist-theist?” “ckroll-Myers?” -if anything, the hyphen separates “rational” and “irrational.” In this case, there’s no need for a “win-win.” Regardless of what the irrational and superstitious think, there is a rational and objective truth. You can posit all the gods, wafers, crackers, and holy this/holy that you want. In the end, it’s about a bunch of deluded people who are upset because they think a piece of crap cracker will become the body of a person alleged to have died over 2,000 years ago. If you have evidence to support this contention, please post it here.
As far as his points – if they went over the heads of the readers – that is their issue. I do not claim to be a teacher and thus am not going to take on the role of assisting you to parse the communication minus bias.
Again, you’re either not reading the comments or being dishonest (or, I suppose, you’re truly ignorant). The vast majority of the responders here *did* get his points. They included his inability to accept responsibility for his actions or to recognize that what he did was far more serious than blowing off steam.
As far as his honesty – which of you are in his shoes? As far as his passion – kudos to him that he is alive inside.
This is basically a nonsense statement preceded by an irrelevant question. Obviously none of us are “in his shoes” if they are the shoes of one who makes death threats then follows up with “I didn’t really mean it” after sending them out with his spouse’s work email account. And give him “kudos” for his “passion” and being “alive inside” based on his actions is nonsensical. Who else earns your “kudos?” Ted Kazinski was passionate. One could argue that John Hinkley was passionate. They followed through with their “passions.” Who’s to say C. Kroll isn’t as passionate as they?
As to his physical references – obviously there is quite a bit of distance between the object and the source.
So, you’re conceding that he may be a danger if close to his target? You’re suggesting he’s passionate but not passionate enough to drive all night to reach the Heartland? You’re confusing us here, DM. Please clarify.
How often have we all read worse and towards more important people than a silly drone professor that apparently thinks he is more important than he is.
And, in an earlier comment you said:
Out of curiosity, which class or classes have you taken of Professor Myers? Surely, you’ve actually attended at least one in order to be qualified to make these comments. Truly, you have first-hand knowledge of his importance, his teaching abilities, and the imposition of his opinions on students and can show us your grade for the class.
Or, are you deceiving us all? Either you’re qualified to comment on this and can document it or you’re lying. I suspect its the latter. Indeed, those that are familiar with Prof. Myers’ academic work have commented in the past that his classes are not “Pharyngula 101” and are actually biology classes. Instead, nutjobs and kooks like to create hyperbole and nonsense (they call these “lies” where I live, but I’ll abstain from imposing my own regional vernacular on yours) and point out how he cannot possibly be “qualified” since, while his education is superior, he doesn’t subscribe to your set of superstitions. What utter bollocks.
To any of you that has something you revere and treasure – place what you revere and treasure into the hands of someone that holds no respect for the rights of others. Observe it trashed by an ignorant dolt – then and only then might you vaguely comprehend what this meant to many including Mr. Kroll.
The difference is that what I revere and treasure actually has worth. Indeed, they each have lives of their own -real lives, not imaginary ones like a eucharist cracker. Not only that, but if you, C. Kroll, or any other wacko nutjob out there insulted a member of my family, the last thing on my list would be a death threat. You’re first reaction would probably be to point out that I’m probably willing to defend my family and you’d be right. But this is different from instructing someone to resign from their job or I’ll kill them. And people have more worth than a cracker. If you don’t agree, you’re fucked up in the head. QED.
‘Wow, you guys are still talking about this. Good.
I wanted to make a few things clear that have become muddled.
First off, I was not trying to use Melanie’s email account to hide the fact of my identity.
It was a mistake, plain and simple; we have two computers that are routed together, my wife had been asked to send some paperwork in while on vacation, and had used the email account on her computer to do so.
I simply clicked on an email address for pz Myers, Which was listed in a news article I happened to be reading. The email opened as always, and I did not look to see whose address it was. I had assumed since it had always done so in the past, that the email would go out from my account with my name on it. Just as intended.
Second, we are not really blog, or political people, in fact we are simple, quite, ordinary folks doing our best to raise three children, our life may be thought to be boring, and mundane by many people I’m sure, But not to us.
Melanie and I are just thankful for what we have, besides the time we spend together as a family, we do spend time working, driving, cooking, ,little league, football practice, homework, cleaning, field trips, church, yard work, caring or Melanie’s parents, making ends meet, and paying lot’s of taxes. Not that we’re alone I’m sure.
I mention this, because we have never imagined we would be caught up in some issue such as this, and it shows that, the more a story get’s told, the more distorted it becomes.
First off, the email that was sent by me, not Melanie, not flowers, me. Was no death treat, was it stupid, wrongheaded, an even creepy letter… No doubt. But, it was very far from a death threat. As you well know.
In fact, the whole situation would have been funny, if the whole mess did not cause Melanie harm, or 800 flowers
One thing has become crystal clear during this episode. The People on some of these “free thinker” blogs and sites, not in all cases, but for the most part.) Are like lemmings, mean, angry lemmings. They pour out their talking points, and even try to sound intelligent and insightful.
Group think. Very scary stuff, from some very scary people .Perhaps the fbi should be called. We even have one guy analyzing my writing, without ever meeting me, talking to me, knowing absolutely nothing about me or my Wife. Yet he was able to ascertain by the words I used, misspellings, or capitalizations, everything about me, I thought, who I listened too, even what my motives where. It was truly awesome seeing this ability used in real life, outside of the profiles one see’s portrayed all the time on detective shows.
The fact that he was wrong about everything, well that means nothing, as long as it fit neatly inside this persons own world view. of course, all the while in defense of Mr. Myers right to scream fire in a crowed theater.
. The funny thing was how fast people on some of these atheist and left wing blogs were to condemn 800 flowers, their judgment, their products, and their integrity. And oh the sadness when it turned out not to be a corporate sponsored attack, on one of their wing nuts.
For my part, if the world never hears about me or PZ again it would be just fine. Though I hope that this man could try to use his position to teach, and perhaps he could teach these, children, young men and women, that it is wrong to attack people’s religions and that people have the right to believe, or not believe in God if they choose
.
(The “children” thing got me some heat; it’s apparently a terrible and patriarchal thing to utter. The thought that perhaps I had a child in college, never entered my writing critics mind, which in itself is amazing, given how incredibly intelligent he in fact is.)
I do hope that Mr. Myers will be removed from his position as a teacher, for his obvious lack of tolerance towards others, and the fact that he used a state funded website to broadcast his hateful teachings. God only knows what he talks about in class.
I do believe that what I did was wrong, that is no way to speak to anyone, even if you do no Agree with them. But this was not about debate, or a free exchange of ideas or that Myers is an atheist, it is what he promotes (and he does not have a right to, not in the classroom, or in print.) That is, the desecration of anyone’s religion in this country.
I must say, that I was indeed angered by, what Mr. Myers has promoted, which is the desecration of another’s Church, and another’s religious beliefs, this is beyond wrong. It is the promotion of acts that fly in the very face of
The religious freedoms this Nation was built on. In fact, these same rights protect
This guy Myers and his right not to practice a religion.
So tell me if this sounds right. This week Myers uses some college site and asks some freaks to violate the sacraments, next week another wing nut tells someone to snatch the menorah , and then maybe some other guy does not like atheist, and he tells folks to smash some Volvos, or to carry out spree old growth logging, whatever. And we’ve already discussed what would have happened if Mr. Myers had advocated that someone mess with a koran, or draw some cartoons of muhammad.
You see my friends, it’s a nasty cycle. Again, I’m a blue collar type of guy; it could be I’m just not as enlightened as some folk around these parts?
And for what it’s worth, all you angry people, Mr. Myers, your acolytes, friends supporters whatever. I’m the one that wrote the email, attack me to your blue in the face,
Send my email to whomever or whatever agency in the country that you please. As my last letter was never intended to mitigate what I did. Or to cast blame on my wife, or the computer or anyone else.
But again, now that you know the facts (and no I don’t know or follow bill donoughou, used capitals because all the nice folks where doing the same thing in their missiles. In fact I did not have the slightest idea who he was, until I read about how really bad he is on the anti god sites). I have written to 800 flowers and explained what happened, and took responsibility for writing the email, and I have written to you all too. And most of all, my wife understands that I sent the stupid email in anger from what I thought was my own account, with no malice toward her or her employer, and when she read what Mr. Myers has been promoting she to was disgusted, I hope that most people would feel exactly the same.
Maybe some of you excellent writers will write in support of Melanie, who has never had a crossed word for anyone, but perhaps me on occasion. And all you people out there, that have used and liked 800 flowers in the past, please do so in the future. I am not an employee, they do not support beating people up, nor are they homophobic, or anti atheist, in fact I imagine that they would sell flowers to just about anyone, regardless of race, creed, or gender.
I have posted this letter on other sites besides this one, as we truly want to get this out in the open, for everyone to see. Perhaps, if nothing else this fiasco will keep people like Mr. Myers from Asking folks to attack their neighbor’s churches, synagoges, moskes, or coffee shops.
oh, and before I turn in for the night, some of us work after all. I wish pz would try to go after me for anyting, I would simply love it. In fact I would love any of you nice folks to just stop by an have a chat any time you would like.
what would be really great, is if you guys were spending all your time next week writting angry blogs over the fact that pz had lost his job. and let me get this right, he has a right to tell people to attack the church, and I can’t get mad and tell him I want to beat his brains in when he does, your right it’s getting crazy. . and maybe y’all can come up with something besides
“he’s really bad at spelling.” when you attack an idea.
and for all of you that gave personal advice to Melanie, she wanted you all to know that, you’ll be happy to know that we spent a lovely weekend together with our children, out on the boat fishing friday and saturday, then today sunday, we all went to church and then down to the harbor in Northport for some Ice cream. And you know what, pz myers never came up once. In fact God provided another Job for Melanie almost right away. And it even pays more. Thanks PZ and all you fine folks out their with your auto emailers for making the Kroll summer a little sunnier.
Keep on digging Chuck, keep on digging…
Wow, you’ve reached China!?!?!
Gosh you clems crack me up,I am not afriad of you, or pz myeres, or any of you fake egotistical aholes, not any of you.
The funny thing is, that you know even less about the law, then the other subjects you pretent to be experts in.
so come up out of your parents basement, see the light, smell the roses. and get on with the real world ok.
Dear mister Kroll,
I plan on shitting on a pile of consecrated god-wafers that I have stolen from the local Catholic mission in Santa Fe during High Mass last Sunday…. after I stab them first. If you don’t like it, you can lump it: that’s what is meant by religious freedom.
I do hope that Mr. Myers will be removed from his position as a teacher, for his obvious lack of tolerance towards others, and the fact that he used a state funded website to broadcast his hateful teachings. God only knows what he talks about in class.
I’m sure his students and colleagues know what he’s talking about in his classes. Indeed, imaginary beings, such as your god (whichever that might be) aren’t capable of “knowing” anything. But the most important thing to point out in your statement above is that he has *not* used any state-funded websites to “broadcast […] hateful teachings.” Not only is Pharyngula, Myers’ blog, owned and operated by Seed Magazine, his “broadcasts” have no hatred at all included, particularly when compared to Christian and Islamic ministers, priests and emans who preach hatred of all sorts of people who don’t think like them (case in point, death threats to young men who take a cracker given to them or those who call such death threats utter nonsense).
I challenge you to cite a single example of where PZ Myers has stated he “hates” the people of any religious superstition.
this was not about debate, or a free exchange of ideas or that Myers is an atheist, it is what he promotes (and he does not have a right to, not in the classroom, or in print.) That is, the desecration of anyone’s religion in this country.
Maybe in your country, but Myers and his blog both reside in the United States, where Freedom Of Speech is protected and he *is* afforded the right, if not the expectation, to speak up against injustice -which is what he did. That the catholic cult and other religious cults that demand that rational and non-superstitious people not only respect their superstitions but adhere to them is not only laughable but deserving of sharp and unadulterated criticism as well. He has not only the right, but the duty, to share his opinion and rational thought. You, however, do not have the right to threaten his life in exchange, regardless of what you think of his opinion.
So tell me if this sounds right. This week Myers uses some college site and asks some freaks to violate the sacraments, next week another wing nut tells someone to snatch the menorah , and then maybe some other guy does not like atheist, and he tells folks to smash some Volvos, or to carry out spree old growth logging, whatever. And we’ve already discussed what would have happened if Mr. Myers had advocated that someone mess with a koran, or draw some cartoons of muhammad.
Violating sacraments is not illegal. Stealing an artifact, relic, or property of someone else is. If a priest gives me a cracker, it then becomes mine. If I choose to remove it from my mouth, I can then do with it what I wish. Eat it later; stick it in my pocket; take it home to run tests for DNA, botulism, bullshit (the most likely ingredient); or just flush it down the toilet. If the priest didn’t want me to have it, he shouldn’t have given it to me.
What you’ve done is made a logical fallacy known as a poor analogy. Whatever I chose to do with a cracker that belongs to me does not have an analogy in the other examples of theft and vandalism you mention, and that is the entire point of what Myers and other have said. Anyone who thinks otherwise is, I’m sorry to say, very clearly deluded.
In addition, you and others (elsewhere on the internet) have made similar comments about PZ Myers regarding Islam, Muhammad, etc. Clearly, none of you have actually read his blog. There are several instances where PZ has openly criticized Islam and its alleged prophet, much in the same manner as the catholic cracker. He is, after all, an equal-opportunity atheist. If you have any reason to suspect that I might not have been willing in the past to criticize Islamic superstitions, I urge you to click the “islam” label in the right-hand sidebar of this blog near the top of the page.
Maybe some of you excellent writers will write in support of Melanie, who has never had a crossed word for anyone,
Already been done. Several of the other blogs (I think even a few in this thread) have had bloggers and commenters that have indicated their support for Melanie. Indeed, many have stated that they sent emails to 1800 Flowers in her support, citing you as the fault and not she, recommending that her job be given back. Personally, I think its her tough luck -such are the breaks to being partnered with a hothead.
In fact God provided another Job for Melanie almost right away.
Really? Its too bad she didn’t have any marketable skills or the ability to do a job search on her own. I’m being sarcastic, by the way. I’m betting she got a new job, not because of an imaginary deity, but because she has her own talents and skills and was able to look in the right place or make herself noticed. Sincerest congrats to Melanie.
The People on some of these “free thinker” blogs and sites, not in all cases, but for the most part.) Are like lemmings, mean, angry lemmings.
[…]
Was no death treat, was it stupid, wrongheaded, an even creepy letter… No doubt. But, it was very far from a death threat. As you well know.
Except we don’t know.
The subject of your email was “your short life” and within the short, angry, and, dare I say, deranged comments you included this:
I’d say that qualifies as a death threat. Moreover, I’m puzzled at what would qualify you to accuse others of being “angry lemmings.” Do you ever acquire knowledge beyond your own narrow set of political and religious beliefs? Have you ever attempted to consider alternative perspectives, at least for the purpose of determining why others hold the opinions they have? These are traits of the rational. Indeed, the mere willingness to be prepared to revise one’s point of view, perspective, worldview, politics, and/or religious beliefs in the face of evidence or information is considered rational. What’s so very amusing and ironic is that you accuse the participants of this and other blogs of free thought as being “dems,” which betrays not only the fallacy of false dichotomy in your thinking but an ignorance as well. There are, after all, many, many conservative and, indeed, Republican atheists and free thinkers. In fact, in my 41 years I’ve voted for more Republicans than Democrats.
[…] Posted on July 21, 2008 by ylooshi Chuck Kroll has returned with a follow up post you can find here. I’ve posted a response just a few comments below that. Here’s an excerpt from his […]
“Again, I’m a blue collar type of guy; it could be I’m just not as enlightened as some folk around these parts?” – Chuck Kroll
That is correct sir.
“then maybe some other guy does not like atheist, and he tells folks to smash some Volvos, or to carry out spree old growth logging, whatever.”
You want to turn the tables and disrespect some object that atheists worship except we don’t have any because we aren’t wackos like you.
Yeah, I was scratching my head about the “Volvos” thing… is that some sort of atheist stereotype that I didn’t get the memo on?
“Group think. Very scary stuff, from some very scary people .”
Group think? You mean like where everyone decides to pretend a cracker turns into some dead guys flesh and then eat it?
Except that it was your wife who lost her job–and magically got a new one in between 12:27 and 1AM–and not PZ. So we don’t need to get angry about him getting fired, because you didn’t succeed in getting him fired, you succeeded in getting your wife fired. You seem unclear on this point: You threatened to kill PZ if PZ did not quit his job. The result of your action was that your wife lost her job. PZ went to work. He still has his job. Your wife does not. I hope that clears things up.
In answer to your question, yes, PZ has the right to ask people to take crackers that are freely distributed from their place of distribution without consuming them. You do not have the right to threaten to beat his brains in. The simple fact that you cannot distinguish a request for crackers from a death threat is both terrifying and amusing.
“Maybe some of you excellent writers will write in support of Melanie, who has never had a crossed word for anyone”
Write letters in support of Melanie to who? 1-800-Flowers? It would serve no purpose unless she wants her job back but 30 minutes after you wrote that you wrote the following.
“In fact God provided another Job for Melanie almost right away. And it even pays more. “
You know, I can’t add too much to this, except that it is patently obvious that this CKroll character is a complete nutter.
Everyone is trying to -reason- with an irrational man, who sincerely thinks that somehow, a death threat with extortion implied is somehow “just blowing off steam”. There is no point in responding to HIM, only in rebutting him to others whom are reading and giving him no personae bump by even acknowledging him as person capable of understanding what we are talking about.
In other words, treat him like the spoiled, tantruming 8 year old that he is. Refer to him only in third person and that should deflate things nicely. Not that everyone isn’t doing a great job already.. 🙂
Personally, I would like it if the FBI took this very seriously, and put this lunatic away for a long while. I don’t know what the chances of that are, given the current administration, but we can always be hopeful.
I’m encouraged by the Kroll family accounts. I hope it is true; and I see no reason to doubt it. I did sign the petition sent to 1800flowers requesting they reconsider the firing; but a new and better job seems to be a win all around, so that’s good too.
Here’s the thing. We all know it, hopefully, and you’ve been watching it in action here. Some folks just don’t have any sense of decency and restraint when they go online.
What Charles did was appalling, by any measure. He doesn’t seem to get just how bad it was, and quite likely he never will. Charles is also clueless about the difference between doing stuff at work, and doing it in your own time.
For instance. If Charles had sent his crude and infantile email from his own email as intended; nothing would have happened. PZ Myers has been overwhelmed with this kind of shallow malice. What made a difference is that the email account used was a work account. That changes everything, and it lead to Melanie being the one who lost her job. But PZ Myers doesn’t do his religion baiting from work, and what evidence we have suggests that he is appreciated by his students and at some pains to reassure them explicitly (since they will be aware of his private blog) that their religious views will make no difference for their classes.
There’s no basis at all to fire Myers from his job, since his blog is not a work blog, and his religion baiting is not done at work. No indication has been given that Myers lets his virulent antipathy to religion have a negative impact on his teaching or work performance.
Charles may think that unlikely, but it’s quite true. After all, if we judged people by their online behaviour, Charles himself should be thought to be a psychotic and dangerous thug. He claims he is not. Strangely, I also suspect he is not. He’s more likely just another generally decent person who becomes very ugly indeed when they get online.
One more thing. I am generally opposed to Myers style aggressive attacks on religion, and was certainly opposed to the whole cracker desecration idea, at first. But I think I’m gradually coming around.
PZ Myers recently posted The Great Desecration, with a photo of the cracker in the bin along with the coffee dregs and banana peel, after having being pierced with a rusty nail. Pages of the Qu’ran, and of “The God Delusion”, are there as well.
But why the rusty nail? It’s a historical reference, explained in the post, which should be read. It was a part of the accusations made by the church against Jews in the medieval times, which lead to wholesale slaughter of entire communities, fired up by false claims of desecration of the eucharist.
Although PZ Myers’ has actively made this thing much worse by being deliberately and openly offensive and provocative, he has also managed to show that the seeds of irrational violence remain very much in place in the religious mindset, now just as in the dark ages. We see this in the crude and thuggish implicit violence in response… not just from Charles, but from many many others.
People like Charles are, I hope, a small minority. But history indicates that their particular way of expressing religion to those who do not share or respect it remains extremely serious. And so I have very reluctantly come around. Myers has done us all a service in revealing that the ugly potential for violence is still present within religion where their symbols become more important and more valued than other people.
I just want to say, THANK YOU to Mr. Kroll.
You see, even though your actions were infantile and a bit childish, you have shown a very clear point that the left-wing establishment in this country has a completely double standard.
I’m not a Catholic. I do not believe the things that the Catholic church believes. But I have enough respect for my fellow man that I do not mock those who have a different opinion than I do.
By mocking an entire religion, this “professor” showed his complete self-centeredness and arrogance. He doesn’t believe in the things that Catholics believe in. That’s fine. But why does he have to go the extra step to mock and belittle those who do? What happened to good old fashioned respect for each other?
The reaction from the students of this “professor” shows that he is raising a generation of self-centered, egotistical brats like him. Those who believe in free speech–as long as the speech is something they agree with. As for speech that they don’t agree with, they shout down the speaker and try to punish the speaker and everything in the speaker’s life until the speaker is shut up. And if anyone dares to speak about their religious beliefs, THEY cry “intolerance”. The irony is palpable.
While many, many others in your religion decided to follow the tenets of your religion and “turn the other cheek”, you reacted. Unfortunately, you did bring yourself down to the level of Myers in doing so, and your reaction was exactly what he was hoping for. But again, if anything, I am glad that in your puerile behavior, you also brought to light the same puerile behavior in this supposed “professor” who is leading our next generation.
On the issue of whether Mr. Kroll’s original post (on Melanie’s e-mail account) to PZ Myers was or was not a death threat, I propose that he try a little test. Send the same text to the President at his White House e-mail address, and see whether the Secret Service contacts him to ‘discuss’ it.
On second thought, probalby not a good idea….
you have shown a very clear point that the left-wing establishment in this country has a completely double standard.
Except you fail miserably in elucidating what this double standard actually is or even to expose who, precisely, among those involved are among the so-called “left wing.” I find it interesting and somewhat dismaying that the ignorant and undereducated of the United States, when faced with rationalist points of view, automatically label the rationalist as “left-wing.” Rather than adopt a rational mindset or at least logically and rationally refute their opponents, the irrational resort instead to a false dichotomy of political ideals. While PZ Meyers has openly stated that he is “liberal” in his political views, the blanket label of “left-wing” is an ignorant assumption. Not all atheists and rationalists are liberals and leftists -and only the ignorant and undereducated would assume so.
By mocking an entire religion, this “professor” showed his complete self-centeredness and arrogance. He doesn’t believe in the things that Catholics believe in. That’s fine. But why does he have to go the extra step to mock and belittle those who do? What happened to good old fashioned respect for each other?
More ignorance. First, the inclusion of inverted commas around the word professor indicates that you’re belief is that PZ Myers is not an actual professor but merely posing as one. He is, indeed, a fully tenured professor of biology. In addition, he mocks an entire religion, in this case, that first chose to mock the victims of kidnappings and hate crimes. Indeed, he mocks the very superstitious nutjobs that think sending death threats to a college student who was attempting to educate a friend on Catholic superstitions and ritual is okay.
This same student, Webster Cook, was assaulted and threatened for leaving school property (the commons area of a university building) with a cracker that was freely given to him. It belonged to him. The wackos that attempted to stop him and later threatened his life and accused him of “kidnapping Jesus” and of “hate crimes” had no right to do either. Cook, however, did have the right to do with the cracker whatever he wished. It was, after all, given to him. Note, also, the appropriate use of inverted commas in this paragraph since both instances are of imagined and made up labels.
The reaction from the students of this “professor” shows that he is raising a generation of self-centered, egotistical brats like him.
Really? You’ve attended his classes? You’ve administered some sort of survey to his students? Please, fill us all in on the data you’ve accumulated from Professor Myers’ students. You are aware, of course, that there is a difference between the people who comment on his and other blogs and the students that attend his classes. Then again, perhaps not. You’ve already established your overall ignorance.
Those who believe in free speech–as long as the speech is something they agree with. As for speech that they don’t agree with, they shout down the speaker and try to punish the speaker and everything in the speaker’s life until the speaker is shut up. And if anyone dares to speak about their religious beliefs, THEY cry “intolerance”. The irony is palpable.
And yet the irony completely escapes you, and regardless of its palpable nature, you fail to touch, perceive, or understand it. Myers has done nothing to “shout down” or “punish” any speakers. He hasn’t sent any death threats to those that disagree with him or even to those that call for his resignation. The nutjobs like Bill Donohue that make use hate speech to cry foul when their superstitions are questioned, criticized and mocked fit in your paragraph above quite nicely, however. They claim that taking a cracker from your mouth and saving it for later, the bin, or even the toilet equates to “kidnapping.” They say that such an act is a “hate crime.” They’re idiots and nutjobs and they might as well slap those who’ve been victims of kidnappings and hate crimes hard in the face.
In closing, I know your type, cc looper. You’re the average ignorant bigot that can stand the fact that there might be someone willing to question your politics or your faith. You can’t stand the rationalists who are aren’t willing to adhere to superstitious ideas or to follow blindly behind authority in goose-step fashion. Instead, you’re willing to liken a blogger who’s willing to say the emperor is in the buff and a cracker hasn’t any magical powers to a nutjob that sends death threats to people, as evidenced in your last paragraph above. There, you state ckroll “brings himself to Myers’ level,” as if Myers was already at the “death threat” level. Or is it that you equate rational dissent with death threats? Either way, you haven’t a clue.
[…] let the company know what their corporate email was being used for and she was subsequently fired. Her husband then confessed on another blog which had mentioned the incident. Despite his admitting to breaking the law, and a complete and […]
Kroll — are you seriously mentally ill? So you get upset about a blog post and so you then make death threats?
Think about it: what would Jesus do?
Hint: nothing like what you have done!
What would Jesus do? Well, Jesus did plait a whip and beat hell out of some guys for disrespecting the sacred temple. Kroll’s only crime is in using naughty language. Meyers is the jerk here. Hothead Kroll had been insulted and acted like a “Boanerges” (St.s James and John, sons of thunder). Anyone who can’t sympathize with Kroll’s fury is a creep with no sense of the sacred..
If you think informing someone to 1) get their “short life in order” and 2) that he’ll have his “brains beaten in” if he doesn’t resign “naughty language,” then you either have some reading/comprehension issues or you’re intentionally minimizing Kroll’s actions.
Clearly, this the latter option is the case since you seem to not be afflicted by the former unless you had some third-party assistance with the above paragraph. If so, then it is likewise clear that your minimization is a result of your inability to accept that someone might not share your delusion regarding a cracker.
This is just so much fallacious nonsense. It implies that not having a “sense of the sacred” (whatever that’s supposed to mean) equates to being a creep. This just isn’t so and to demonstrate it one need only consider that anyone afflicted with religious superstition would readily consider the “sacred beliefs” of other superstitions that were at odds with their own to be ridiculous. Moreover, I’d go so far as to say you’d be offended if required to adhere to such beliefs.
Since the Christian nutbars that were so ready to post here and other blogs with comments of Fatwa-envy, I’ll use Islam as an example. The burka is ridiculous and a means of discriminating and oppressing women. Many afflicted by Christian superstitions have publicly commented as much. Many might lie and state that they “respect” this sacred belief (that woman should be covered in public) -a very few might even believe it- but I guarantee not a single one of the Christians who posted here or at other blogs would be willing to have the practice imposed upon them or their loved ones.
Nor do rational people want Christians imposing their superstitions on non-believers.
Webster Cook was given a cracker. The cult leader that offered to him relinquished any legal right to property when he gave it away. It then became Webster Cook’s property to do with what he wishes. The same is true of any cracker or wafer given to PZ Meyers. The “desecration” of the cracker exists only in the minds and delusions of the superstitious and rational people should not and need not be required to subscribe to these superstitions.
If the cracker were being handed out in a church, the matter would be slightly different (though, I’d argue not by much). It wasn’t. It was being passed out in a commons area within Cook’s university -a clear violation of the separation of church and state. It gives the impression that the Catholic cult is the one that matters and other cults or those that don’t believe are less worthy. Cult followers of catholicism may hold this bigoted view, but they should not be permitted the opportunity promote that bigoted view on public property.
People who think a cracker becomes the body of a dead person after a cult leader says a few magic words are batshit crazy. QED.
For starters Cook, a Catholic, knows the protocol for receiving the Eucharist. He was the sacrament to be swallowed then and there. Since you don’t seem to be a Catholic, why don’t you not concern yourself with our business? Next, the creep (Webster} was not given a “cracker”. Since you keep using the term, the onus is on you to prove that it is merely a cracker. The imperical sciences are not in a position to either prove or disprove the doctrine of the Real Presence so I would like to see you try. Next, what Christian is imposing his view on an unbeliever? And who says any “magic words”? You obviously are stone ignorant of the difference between the sacramental system and magic. Finally, not all people lacking a sense of the sacred are necessarily creeps. Only the ones who keep refering to the Eucharist as a “cracker “with the sole intent of offending are. Oh, and before kissing you goodbye sweetpea, you are running dangerously close to using hate speech, so don’t get all legal with your separation of church and state jive.
Cook, a former catholic and no longer deluded or afflicted with catholic superstition, was attempting to educate another student who was curious about the cult rituals that were taking place. The cracker (and it is, most definitely, a cracker) was given to him. It was then his cracker. He could have applied Cheeze-Wiz to the top of it then ate it if he wanted.
As to the reason why I “concern” myself with your “business,” is because deluded bigots like you would like to impose your delusions on the rest of us, mandating that we, the rational, subscribe to your superstitions. Not only that, but the superstitions have caused bigots, not so unlike yourself, to belittle the term “hate crime” and insult the victims of actual kidnappings by suggesting that your alleged messiah was “kidnapped” when Cook decided not to eat an essentially worthless cracker. Such bigotry, nonsense, poppycock, superstition, hatred, and all-around stupidity deserves to be brought out in the open and discussed. Fools should not be pampered, encouraged, or respected in cases such as this.
The catholic cult deemed itself important enough to hold its cult rituals in a public place -in a place where it is illegal to deny access to even an unbeliever (a public university), so the catholic cult must be ready to accept the ridicule, criticism and inquiry that results. Period.
You ask, “what christian is imposing his view on an unbeliever?” If the answer truly isn’t clear, then you are overly afflicted by your superstitious beliefs in a way that is very little different that the cult followers at Jonestown in Guyana in 1978. They all followed Jones blindly to the Kool-Aid, never questioning the accuracy of his words and accusing their critics of being hateful, which precipitated their move to Guyana to begin with.
You ask, “who says an ‘magic words’?” Are you stating that in your own cult there is no “consecration” or ritual that includes any sort of incantation or prayer directed at the cracker? If not, then I apologize. If so, then there’s the magic.
magic – n. the perceived ability to affect the real world through words or thoughts directed to or about the supernatural.
Is “sense of the sacred” code for superstitious or for “willing to humor the superstitious?”
Your gross misspelling of “empirical” notwithstanding, the alleged condition of “real presence” *is* testable and falsifiable. Indeed, I *can* prove or disprove the claim that the eucharist is just a cracker, in spite of the fact that the onus is, most definitely, not on me or anyone else not afflicted by your superstitious dogma. The extraordinary claim is is yours. That the cracker you call the eucharist is more than just a cracker is not obvious. What is obvious is that the cracker is made of ground wheat and water. The onus, therefore, is upon the claimant.
But if you, or anyone else, would like to send me a consecrated eucharist, I’ll be glad to empirically test it to see if there is any DNA, blood antigens, or anything beyond, wheat, salt, water, baking soda, and yeast. Just send me an email at ylooshi AT gmail DOT com to coordinate it.
Complete and utter poppycock. It’s always fascinating to see bigots make accusations of “hate speech” when their superstitions and wacky beliefs are questioned or ridiculed. Sorry, bub, but you don’t get the free ride. If you want to be public about your wacky superstitions, then you get to be made fun of. Period.
Furthermore, the pussy way superstitious bigots like you resort to “hate speech” allegations is an insult to real victims of hate speech and real victims of hate crimes. You might as well line up some Jewish or African American families and slap them, one-by-one, in the face.
Ha! You accuse me of “deliberatly minimizing” then go on to say that creep Cook was merely trying to educate another creep about our rituals. C’mon, hadn’t the twirp ever seen a cracker before? Why did Cookie need to sneak it to the pew for an up close observation? And how is it he just happened to have a zip-loc baggie on his nasty person? And the creep, having been educated in our superstitious cult would have known that what he was doing was a major no-no. Get real. From beginning to end, this whole episode has not been to stimulate dialogue or divest us poor slaves of Romanism of our thralldom but pure and simple to cause hurt and offend. And Kroll was indeed offended and responded with a normal human response. You guys should feel like insects for the fact that his wife lost her job as a result of all this instead of gloating over another persons misfortune. And we “deluded bigots” aren’t “mandating” that you “rational” people subscribe to a damn thing. And IMperical sciences can’t address the fact that The accidents remain but the substance changesin Transubstantiation. And that defination of magic is so broad that it includes just about everything. You suggestion that I slap Jews and blacks sounds like a death threat. Oh my! Maybe you should be fired.
I have never had the displeasure of meeting you face to weasly face but I know all about you. If anyone else wants to read a psychiatric work-up of atheism,google Paul Vitz’s “FAITH OF THE FATHERLESSS”. You are just a snotty little girl whose father disappointed you. Looking forward to reading your next installment of hate.
Oh yeah, just a word to c c looper; You seem like a decent sort but like you say, you aren’t a Catholic. If you were, I think you would have a little more sympathy for Kroll.
[Proselytizing (a.k.a. spam) Comment Removed]
There’s not hatred here, pal. Just pity. I pity ignorant bigots like you who are unable to see past their own fears and superstitions. That you are deluded is clearly evident in the very words you write, so I thank you for dropping by and making that demonstration for us. Case in point: “[a]nd Kroll was indeed offended and responded with a normal human response.”
And this statement by you is the very thing that shows the problem with religious nuts: they think it is “normal” to threaten the lives of those who disagree with them and dare to challenge their superstitions. To assholes like Kroll (and, by your own admission, you), blasphemy is an offense worth killing for. And, when the irrationality of this is pointed out, it’s minimized as a “normal human response.”
I’m also beginning to realize that my initial assessment of your reading/comprehension was wrong. I now think you were not intentionally minimizing Kroll’s actions -I think you’re just not that bright and have difficulty understanding what you read. Otherwise you’d have understood that I wasn’t suggesting that you assault anyone but, rather, making an analogy. I realize now that this sort of advanced literary device may be beyond your level. I’m tempted to offer an apology for not writing to a lower level of comprehension, but then I would be doing a disservice to the readers of my blog that have finished the eighth grade.
Finally, as I stated previously, it can be scientifically demonstrated that there is zero added Jesus in the cracker. Please email me at ylooshi AT gmail DOT com and I’ll arrange to give you a general delivery address where you can send a consecrated eucharist and I’ll prove it.
Yes, yes, of course I knew you were making an analogy. You failed to get my drift that Kroll’s “death threat” was not a death threat either. Does anyone seriously think he was going to buy and airplane ticket and fly to Meyer’s city and pound him in broad daylight after putting it down on the web? It was hot air.
Tell me, o brilliant one, just what scienticfic experiment you could do to prove the substance,(not accidents) is that of a saltine. Both you and the nutty professor are such stupid clod materialists that you pretend to think this whole incident pdisproves Transubstantiation. I say “pretend” because I am sure Meyer’s motive was not to teach anything. Just to offend. I am positive and so is he that know Catholic said, “wow! this guy has just blown away the Bible, Aquinas, Aristotilean language, 2000 tears of Christianity etc. Time for the Vatican to close up shop.” Your assinine suggestion that I pull a Webster Cook and swipe a consecrated Host and ship it to you is so absurd that I question YOUR comprehension skills. You have entirely missed the point of all this. By the way, Your mentor, P Z , backed off on the cracker word and changed to “wafer” when confronted on the radio interview. And I am amused at being called a “bigot”. Are all believers bigots? It’s alot like being lectured to by a klansman. You meet the textbook definition of the word. have anice day.
Since P Z was raised as a Lutheran, he could be confusing their doctrine of consubstantiation. with the Catholic doctrine of Transubstantiation. (but I doubt it, He was just being mean.) How about you? How did you get so weird? Does Paul Vitz’ theory fit? You didn’t comment on it. Too close to home? C’mon, you know perfectly well Meyer’s display of venom accomplishes nothing. It is on a par with driving by a Catholic school and mooning the kiddies. Please admit you have emotional and moral (not intellectual) problems and then I can help you.
Consubstantiation and transubstantiation are both batshit claims, the latter only just more so. And there’s no disputing the fact that those thoroughly deluded by superstition would find rational persons not afflicted by the same superstitions to be “weird.” It doesn’t, however, mean that the superstitious are correct in their assessment. I have the benefit of viewing your superstition from the outside and, thus, embrace the rational and objective perspective. Indeed, I’m open to revising my opinion that your “eucharist” is more than a cracker -I need only some evidence shown that it is. You, on the other hand, are not open to revising, changing, or progressing from your current, and sad, state of delusion since your cult has built in safeguards that make inquiry and criticism out to be blasphemous and unthinkable. You, therefore, reside in a squalor of anti-intellectual and under-educated ignorance through your indoctrinated delusions.
You truly expected me to read a book you only just recommended in less than 24 hours. I’ve set the reference aside in the event I work my way through my ever-growing reading list of texts that are based in reality. Perhaps some day I’ll read it and critique it, but if you’d like to summarize his work create a WordPress blog and do so. Maybe I’ll drop in and comment.
Meyer’s criticisms and ridicule of your medieval superstition has accomplished a lot. People are actually coming to realize that fundamentalist Catholics are nuts -the ones that think death-threats (and Meyers received numerous as did Cook) are what their Jesus-in-a-cracker would do.
Yet another demonstration of your ignorance since, very clearly, the latter action is illegal and Myers comments are completely legal and protected by free speech. Nor does Myers’ comments and criticisms present an immoral or unethical act -indeed, his actions are patriotic and Constitutionally protected as are Cook’s.
With each and every weak ad hominem fallacy you present like this, you continue to weaken your own argument. I can’t tell you how happy I am that you’ve chosen to visit this blog and comment. Perhaps you’d care to comment on some of my other posts? Surely it would be the Christian thing for you to do, since you have an opportunity to “help” a heathen such as myself.
Except you don’t get to decide or judge what’s considered “hot air.” Kroll’s words were threatening. He advised Myers to “get his short life in order.” Anyone who can’t see that as a threat is kidding himself. True, the probability of someone actually seeing through a death threat is low, but the sad reality is that many people do. There was recently a case where a man drove from the east coast to Texas and killed another man in his home based on an online argument in a forum. The idiot that shot and killed people in a church in Tennessee did so because he didn’t like liberals and homosexuals. Myers has another who is constantly writing him to say that he’s “on his way” to kill him. Over a cracker. Nutters, all of them.
So, you can continue to defend nuts like Kroll all you want. It says more about you, however, than it does about Kroll, Myers, me or anyone else. Good luck with that.
I suppose that depends on what they believe in. If they believe blasphemy is a “sin” that deserves death, then yes. If they believe that atheists, non-believers, or those that believe in cults different than their own have not the right to be free of their spam/proselytizing, then yes. If they believe that people different than they don’t deserve equal rights (i.e. different races, genders, sexual preferences), then yes. If they believe that their superstitions should be unquestioned and respected even if done in public and forced upon the public (which is where the communion Cook attended took place), then yes.
If they believe that scientific knowledge must be suppressed and avoided in public schools because it threatens their superstitions, then yes.
If they accept only supernatural terms to explain the world and seek to impose these superstitions on the rest of society, then yes.
If they believe that those who don’t accept their superstitions or have superstitions different than their own are immoral or unjust because of this, then yes.
If they believe that criticizing religion, their’s or anyone else’s, should be a taboo; if they believe that non-believers should remain silent while their superstitions are codified in local, state, and federal governments; if they believe that defending anyone who threatens bodily harm to a critic -be it in jest or not, then yes -they are bigots in the truest sense of the word.
And because I’m big enough to recognize some of my own intolerance (I can’t stand assholes, for instance), I’m also willing to admit, freely, that I’m open to change. I’m willing to enhance, improve, revise, or even completely turn around any opinion that I hold. I only require a modicum of evidence.
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Read some of your other stuff and by YOUR own definition, I am not a bigot. Thank you. Now, do you want to be helped or not? If you don’t chat with me, I can’t minister to you. since my last installment I have gone to church twice and worked in the garden. I am waiting for you to tell us how you got to be such a foul mouthed fellow. (your use of “ASSHOLE” ratcheted our discussion way down.) What is your own religious background? Such vitriol doesn’t come out of a vacuum. Come on now and cathart for us.
By the way, receiving Communion is not open to the public. If the university gave permission for Mass to be held in the commons, that is something you can take up with the school.
Then please accept my apology. I was under the impression you were defending Kroll, who made a death threat. I was under the impression that you were defending the catholic cult’s right to hold a cult ritual in public square. I was under the impression that you expect non-believers of your cult to adhere to your superstitions. I was clearly wrong if you say so, therefore I apologize.
There are a few things that I’d like “help” with, none of them are related to your cult or superstitions or your apparent need to spam others with either. I’d like help, for instance, syncing my Blackberry in Linux -but I don’t anticipate that happening anytime soon. Perhaps there’s a ritual in your cult for Blackberrys?
If that’s the case, then communion should be held on church property. Once its held on state run, taxpayer funded property, it becomes unethical to discriminate participants, particularly when the students enrolled pay fees included with their tuition that supports the cult’s rites and rituals. That space is for the students. Paid for by the students and the taxpayer.
Moreover, even if it were a church, the only thing Cook was guilty of is blasphemy, which is *not* a crime in the United States and protected under Free Speech. To assert control over Free Speech is un-American and definitely not a very patriotic thing. If I were to “ratchet down” to your level, I’d be tempted to use an ad hominem fallacy such as those you’ve resorted to previously and ask “when did you decide to be unpatriotic and anti-American?” But I won’t, since such tactics are useful only when on the irrational side of a rational argument. In other words, when you can’t make rational arguments, resort to fallacious ones.
Dear ylooshi, I suggested you google Vitz’s book, not read it. You can glean enough from that. As for your pretense to be scientific, why don’t you googel Stanly Jaki’s books. It’s just a click of the mouse. He is both a scientist and a priest. He demonstrates that the same guys who articulated Transubstantiation also invented western science.
Could you flesh out what you mean by “batshit crazy”. Is that a scientific term? Also, since atheists like you are parasites, holes in the donut, could you list some contributions your ilk have made to the world in the area of science, art, music, literature etc.? How many hospitals and orphanages they have built? I mean, what good are you anyway? What purpose do your icky little lives have? Why do you even bother to crawl out of bed in the morning? In 500 years, where will you be? Who even cares? What difference is it to you what we Catholics believe? C’mon son,vent. Get it all out. Let the healing begin. I am here for you. One more thing; did you say Myers is a “patriot”?!?! Like Jefferson and Franklin? Oh my goddess! you are wild!
PZ Myers is more of a true American than you will ever be you ignorant, deluded twit.
The way you want to live is just a Christianized version of Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia.
No thanks. Go there if you like living in a theocracy.
Religion isn’t necessary to build hospitals or orphanages.
Your average state university hospital is a secular hospital. For instance, the University of Texas Health Science Center in San Antonio. Religion didn’t build that. PEOPLE did.
My life has plenty of meaning. What meaning do you have in your horrid little life from living a lie?
I crawl out of bed because I have to eat and sleep and there are people I want to see and things I want to do, books I want to read, music I want to listen to, art I want to see, flowers to smell, etc.
Your life is so devoid of meaning that you can’t imagine loving it so much that you don’t need a fairy tale to get through it.
I pity you. You cannot appreciate the life you have right here, right now. You keep waiting for some slick, snake-oil promise of a life after you’re dead.
You’re not even promised a good afterlife. You’re promised eternity sucking up to a megalomaniacal sadist with a bunch of other fatuous, pompous asses like yourself.
That’s just horrible. How wretched your life must be to find that a step up in standard of living!
There is no life after you’re dead. It’s game over.
There is apparently a lot for me to learn outside of my books. Thanks for the great read,
I prefer articles like this becaus they perpetually appear to offer to you a completely different perspective on things. I am no expert in this area but like to expand my data by reading things of this nature.
Okay guys it probably wouldn’t hurt to admit that neither of you or any of the rest of us really know absolutely what the truth is. Every single one of us is in the same boat. We live our lives searching for answers but knowing in the end that we all die and that we will never really know absolutely for sure what it all means. That’s a frustrating thing to realize about this life.
So, if some people are able to find comfort in believing that there is a great reward awaiting them after this life then I just try to be happy for them. It”s a nice thought. On the contrary, if you believe that our entire life, each and all of our lives, are just the sum total of our experiences in this short life, then that does seem rather insignificant when you think about how long this planet and the universe has been around and will be around after we are long gone.
Believe me I have always been a very big sceptic. The whole Jesus story to me seems much more like a fairy tale than real actual historical events. But, I am willing to admit that I don’t know for sure. I wasn’t there. So I leave my mind open to the possibility, no matter how far fetched it may seem.
I mean think about this. It wasn’t that long ago that the idea that matter could actually distort the very space that it occupies, and that time is relative to speed and not constant as had always been assumed, would have drawn laughter from scientists the world over. Then here comes a guy who invisions the universe in a way that no human being before him had ever done before, and that one man chaged foreever our understanding of space, time, gravity, and matter.
So, you just never know what lies around the next corner. Live and let live. Believe whatever it is that you wish to believe as long as it makes you happy. Just don’t try to force your beliefs on me.
If I have any problem at all with religion that would definately be it. Think about how absolutely contrary it is to, on the one hand, expouse these moral edicts and arbitrary rules governing human behaviour, but then on the other hand to torture and murder those people who don’t happen to believe the same thing you do.
That’s when religion scares me. And all of these christian evangelicals need to get out a history book and gain a little perspective. It’s easy to call out the muslims today because it’s right here and right now, but it wasn’t the muslims who crusaded their way accross europe killing people because they were ‘pagans’ or ‘heathens’ and it wasn’t the muslims who put innocent women on trial here in early america and burned them in the name of god.
It’s shocking to think about the millions upon millions of human beings that have literally been murdered in the name of GOD. If there is a GOD, I bet that really pisses him off. I know it would piss me off if people ran around killing each other and then always blaming turned around and blamed it on me.
Bryan
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[…] or accidentally logged on to his wife’s email account to fire off his angry email. In a comment thread in another blog the husband said he made the threat “in the same way one does when saying […]